Ebay trio

[Fred W]

What am I missing that a trio to 18132 Pte J L Wilkinson Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers should be worth bidding over £500

Fred W

[PhilB]

Possibly that he was KIA 1/7/16? Phil B

[9th Black Watch]

Here's his details from CWGC

Name: WILKINSON, JOSEPH LEWINS

Initials: J L

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

Unit Text: 11th Bn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 01/07/1916

Service No: 18132

Additional information: Son of William and Mary Wilkinson, of 3, Cuthbert St., Marley Hill, Newcastle-on-Tyne.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 4 D and 5 B

Cemetery: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Derek

[DirtyDick]

I know by its very nature the prices surrounding medals are not rational, they are rather more sentimental, but I truly cannot understand paying (at present) £500 for commonplace medals that were not even minted at the time of the death of - never mind presented to - the recipient.

Please don't construe this as a jibe against anyone who will pay these prices: I too collect medals, but when offered a trio & plaque to a KIA submariner for over £600 a year or so back, I was at first sorely tempted to buy them, but then thought it over and realised that four pieces of metal that were in large part disconnected from the recipient (he died in 1916) were simply not worth that kind of distortion. (Unless I was to purchase them purely as an investment and research project: but I could equally well research him from just the service details given by the seller, and would rather not risk the additional and easily nickable £600+ being stolen or having to keep it in a bank.)

As I say, I can fully appreciate the foibles and irrationality of the hobby - for most medals hold absolutely no intrinsic value save for a £1 or so scrap - and I can obviously understand why some medals are marginally more expensive than others, but cannot grasp quite why some groups like this are so much more expensive, and why people, some of whom are no doubt on average incomes and with families to keep, are prepared to pay the equivalent price for a decent second-hand car. Is it their scarcity on the market or an interest in specific battles/campaigns/regiments?

Anyhow, please remember I am not trying to provoke any defensive responses and am myself a collector, and merely interested in the (perhaps intangible?) motives of the purchasers.

Richard

[museumtom]

As an excercise...................list your medals here on this forum and say how much would be acceptable to you for each set. This should show whether you are 'up to the mark' on medal prices as they stand at the moment.

Tom.

[redbarchetta]

Dick,

I think your comments are the sort that kick off 7 page threads, well meaning or not !!

You are right, it is all sentimental. While these medals were never presented to the recipient, they were given to his wife / mother, who would have cherished them as a tangible link to their sacrifice, may even have worn them at post-war Remembrance services etc.

They are also the tangible offering of a grateful nation, and commemorate their service and / or sacrifice.

They remain unique,also - there is only one set of medals for one soldier, so while they are just pieces of metal, they are not identical to any other piece of metal.

You say you can still research someone without the medals, but why bother ? It is only when you know, deep down, that you are the only person on the planet in possession of the medals of this one person that you have the inclination and the reason to do the research.

Starting to waffle now, so time to stop, methinks...

Jim

[NIGEL]

Jim, i have stated before that i am not into collecting anything, but i do understand people who do and understand the varied reasons why someone would collect and deal in medals, but in this case as you say " just pieces of metal " I understand the meaning of that, as the medals are quite insignificant due to the man they were issued to was long dead and past caring by the time they were issued. So my point is, if you are going to exchange money for these medals, what is the difference between the originals, ones that someone has made to replace the originals for whatever reason, and boni fide replicas ???????? It's your money, just a question thats all

[redbarchetta]

Nigel,

By the same token, what's the point in spending £7m on an original Van Gogh, when you can get a perfectly good print of the same picture for £3.99, frame it nicely, and you would not know the difference once it's on the wall...

It comes down to 'contact' with the original - the KIA didn't touch these medals, but these are the original medals that were produced for this chap, these were the medals that turned up in the brown cardboard box for his widow / mother, these are THE ORIGINAL medals for this chap, and as such are unique. Replicas are not, anyone can have a replica, but only you have the real ones.

If you have seen the film (or read the book, of course) "The Shining" there is a bit where they talk about the hotel being tainted by the things that happened there in the past, a bit of the 'shine' rubbed off. Well medals are a bit like that, the anguish of those left behind who received these 'bits of metal' has been absorbed into the fabric of them...

As I said, this is sentimentality at work, much as the guy who wants the original Van Gogh on his wall, not a print that looks exactly the same.

All IMHO, of course.

Jim

[Jim Maclean]

Well put Jim.

Unfortunately there are those who on handling a medal fail to feel any emotion apart from how much is it worth?

[NIGEL]

Hold on a bit you have gone off on the wrong road, i understand about the swork of art etc, and i dont think that applies here, i perfectly understand the sentimental part as well, i suppose and this is a crude way of putting it but, you could say the same about a " souveneir " from the battlefields, as this may have been worn or used by someone who made the sacrifice. But the medal bit, well he never knew about them, never touched them, massed produced by some one on piece work maybe . I understand what you are saying but unless maybe you are a family member, and not collecting for monetary value or collecting set value, i cant see where you attach the sentimentality to something which you may never know but could be fake, but never the less a piece of metal

[DirtyDick]

Thanks for the replies, chaps, and as explained it was a genuine interest on my part to discover quite what propels some otherwise commonplace medal groups' prices into the stratosphere because they were KIA/DOW (save that they will be numerically rarer than non-casualty groups).

I also realise than within a few short years a WW1 trio could be approaching that mark irrespective of the recipient: look at the price of '14 trios on dealers' lists.

I also collect medals, did as a child and recently re-embarked upon it in conjunction with other studies, but have a greater interest in researching the chaps behind them - indeed often more so than the medals, although they provide a focus and a link to the individual concerned - but have personally never really had the interest or desire to pay a large increment because the chap was killed: obviously the market shows otherwise (and perhaps therefore I am a little odd within this realm!) but it's good to hear some solid motivation as to what prompts this.

Cheers

Richard

Now, Jim, if you want a 7 page thread: "I found this shoebox-full of medals at a car boot this morning for £30..."

[Terry]

Interesting thread, and also one which to a noncollector is difficult to explain. I collect and research medals; my wife is not a collector, never has been, but she can understand the pleasure I get from my hobby. When I go the the local collector's club meeting, and am the lone military buff amongst scads of stamp and coin collectors who seem to be striving for condition, condition, condition, I must admit I don't really comprehend just what drives them. Then again I can't understand medal collectors who would turn down a group because of edge knocks or signs of too much polishing.

I am baffled by the prices for 1 July casualties, and would think that groups won in a monumental victory would be of more value than those which commemorate something which was not much more than outright slaughter. However, we all differ in our interests; there is little hope in trying to explain to others what makes us tick. If someone walked in the door right now and dangled a nice 1 July trio in front of me I would probably be thinking to myself "I must have that!"

God, I love this hobby!

[NIGEL]

I do understand why people collect, and the reasons which may be many, but i was just asking as to Jims explanation for the reasons he said

[redbarchetta]

Nigel,

The question of values for this sentimentality is difficult. KIA medals will always be 'worth' more on two levels - relative scarcity compared to survivors and the 'shine' element, that this chap died fighting for his country. Clearly from a sentimental point of view it shouldn't matter whether he died on 1st July at the Somme, or on 14th March in front of Ypres, but it does. It means when people talk about one of the defining moments of the war, and people still refer to as a turning point in British military history, you know you have the original medals of a man who fell to make that turning point happen.

How much is that worth, to have that tangible link ? Does it matter ? Collectors will say not, in which case as soon as you get two people who 'want' that trio, both of whom are thinking that the price doesn't really matter, the price of it skyrockets. You pay £500; in the great scheme of things, does it matter whether it is £300 or £500, in ten years time you'll be glad you paid the extra £200 because you will have long since forgotten the shock when the bank statement came in, but you will still have that chap's medals upstairs in your collection, safe, researched and appreciated.

You should know I don't collect medals, but understand what drives people who collect the 'personal' elements of WW1...

Jim

[NIGEL]

Jim, i am not arguing with you, or anything like that, i will start again as the point has been lost,----if the man whose medals you are after, never saw them, never touched them, never even knew of them, not a scrap of his dna on them.----my question is how can you attach sentimentality to a lump of metal which may or may not have been awarded to him, meaning there is no difference between a replica and the original-------i understand the monetary value side, i understand the collecters side, but unless you are a family member, how do you attach the sentiments to something which would really only come from the family member, so whether it is the real mcoy or a replica what difference does it make to a non family member---------i think i got it out that time

[redbarchetta]

Nigel,

It's the tangible link. These lumps of metal ceased to be just lumps of metal the moment the guy in the factory moved his finger down his list, came to the next name and engraved that name, only once, on only one lump of metal. That lump of metal then became that chap's medal. It was put in a little box along with a certificate and posted to his next of kin, who kept it and cherished it for decades, before family circumstances etc meant it found its way out into the market, swirled around aimlessly for a while and then settled in someones collection, alongside other personalised lumps of metal from other men who fell, or simply served, for the same 'common good'.

Can I ask a different question, Nigel ? Do you think there is any emotion attached to a memorial in a small village ? This was put up long after the people engraved on the sides died, it is hundreds of miles from where they are buried and they have never seen it. On your way of thinking these monuments have no value, no point, just lumps of stone.

Emotion is intangible, but seeps into things over time. There is no logic to it, it is simply the feeling some people get from objects. Knowing the object was a replica would instantly kill all such feeling, because you would know none of this 'shine' existed in it.

If the medal was from a family member, then yes, the feelings would be stronger, you would feel this 'shine' more strongly, but even a total stranger can understand, feel empathy - this is a small island, and we remain relatively close - you can see the village he came from on the map, the company he worked for probably still exists, the house he grew up in will still be there and you could visit it this weekend if you chose to. You know what he fought for, who he fought for and why he fought - he is still close, in spirit, to every member of this Forum.

Jesus, this is starting to get heavy...!!!

Jim

[NIGEL]

I thought the halilooya's were coming out then, but the monument, i dont think the same there as that is a collecting point where we pay our respects as we cant get to their grave or place of death. Maybe it wasnt meant like that but, thats the way it's become.

On my relatives, i think i would like to have photo's or somethink of theirs they they had personally. My grandad below, actually had his medals, and even a MM, wow a bit of excitment, no more distaste really. For someone who had a really crappy start to life, he joined the navy at 12 and then the army, where he fought, was wounded twice, gassed once awarded the MM, survived the war, and carried on serving his country, until he contracted TB, no doubt on active service, where as the Army booted him out, only for him to die in a civvy hospital, where as he would have maybe got better treatment in a military hospital. you talk of sentimental stuff, i wonder what he would say to you about that after giving his living life to his country for them to toss him aside when he was no use.

I used his medals for target practice when i was younger, sacralidge by todays standards, but maybe they were better off being destroyed that way, as it seems his betters thought his life wasnt worth much just the same as the thousands of others they thought the same

[Jon Miller]

Another non-collector here (though if something appertaining to soldiers I know something about came along, who knows?)

Nigel, I have to say that having read this thread, that I don't actually agree with you about the non-difference between original and replica medals. Although the soldier in question if KIA had no direct physical link to Victory medals etc, they were the original memorial to his war effort and sacrifice. There is only the one personalised set. That's just to say I can understand where the caring collector is coming from.

Forgive me, as this is probably speaking about circumstances I can know little about, but your view on medals possibly extends from what happened to your Grandad. In your experience, bits of medal presented by the establishment who patently let your Grandad down when he needed help, can hardly be things to cherish. We know from other threads that medals could be things to be detested and got rid of at the first opportunity. Funny thing, I'm a terrible sentamentalist, but hearing about your wanton destruction of your Grandad's medals doesn't bother me at all. The important thing is that you have and care about his memory.

Jim, something that bothered me greatly, was the inference which seemed to be given, that it wasn't worth researching a soldier unless you had his medals. I have to say that I find this view totally repugnant, and it is the kind of thing which gives collectors a bad name amongst the gentiles. So many wonderful stories can and should be uncovered, theoretically everyone's story should be uncovered and remembered, all their sacrifices should be known, not just those whose medals have ended up in someone's collection. I am trying to write a book about my local men, I have no medals - why bother? That can't be the right attitude.

[NIGEL]

Hello Jon, Jim

Jon, i never wantingly destroyed the medals, i was a young lad with a .22 rifle and never much into killing things, and found these things in a cupboard, from what i know now the one which i broke was the MM, the rest i sold for £12 to buy a train set in the late 60s. My feelings about all this only came about recently as i have said before, i knew basically nothing about my grandad until roughly 12 months back, but saying that, it's not a great story is it ??

I wasnt reall disagreeing with Jim, just trying to understand his reasoning for the sentimental stuff. But to put a downer on this, from once being associated with the trade/similar trade, what i can tell you is that as soon as anything becomes of value, people will try to and will fake it. If a medal is fetching £500 or more, i bet you could have a die made for a couple of thousand, and you wouldnt have to stamp out many to get your money back, and metal is one of the easiest things to age and put a patiener on, espicially with no moving parts. So the sad part of Jim's point of view is, you dont know if you are being sentimental about the right object, as the people who are/will fake things like this arent trying to con the dealers , just the poor sentimentalist/collecter/punter/f**l. Sentimental at the battlefield/grave/memorial/personal possesion, i can understand, but buying stuff from god knows who on the internet, i think i would have to pass on that one.

I asked this question before and nobody answered---Why do you have to have a mans medals before you can research him ??????????

[redbarchetta]

OK, I'm back (Nigel, do you sleep ??..!).

Sorry, perhaps the 'why bother' comment was a little strong. What I meant was people will only take the time to research someone they have a link with. Whether this is because you are researching the battalion he was with, so his story is one thread in that story, or the town he came from, so he was one of those that served, you need to have a reason, otherwise how else would you even have heard of him ?? If you have his medals, that is another link. I defy anyone to suggest they have just stuck a pin in a copy of SDGW, seen the name and decided "Right, I'll spend the next six months reasearching Fred Smith from Basildon".

You don't need to have his medals, but you do need to have some reason to pluck one name from the millions who served, but that could be a multitude of things, I accept.

Regarding repro's, I guess if you never know it's a repro, then your sentimentality would be unaffected (but you'd feel pretty cheated if you find out it's a repro after ten years of research, but by then you would have formed your own bonds with this chap, so the medals would be less critical).

On the village monument, if these are imbued with feeling because they are a focal point, how are medals any different - they would be a focal point for a family's grief / pride.

Finally, on the feelings of your grandfather, Nigel, while there always seem to be difficulties with veterans, fitting back into society that has moved on while they've been away, anti-war sentiment etc, I'm sure he would be glad to know of your pride in his sacrifice, albeit ninety years on.

Jim

[NIGEL]

Thankyou Jim, and for the last part aswell

[robbie]

these are THE ORIGINAL medals for this chap, and as such are unique. Replicas are not, anyone can have a replica, but only you have the real ones.

Jim

thank you for these words, As a collector of... lots of things really, it is difficult to explain to non-collectors the pleasure one gets out of obtaining items that are/were associated with a person/place/time of interest.

Robbie

[Archer]

Let me help this thread to reach seven pages.

... I truly cannot understand paying (at present) £500 for commonplace medals that were not even minted at the time of the death of - never mind presented to - the recipient.

I don't want to unleash fury from the sentimental, but although I have a few KIA groups, I will not go out of my way, or spend over the odds, to collect medals to people who were killed, because there is usually not enough of a story to research.

Nothing can be more sad than the story of a boy killed in his teens. Before he had a chance to make any mark on the world, leave any legacy.

I much prefer to collect and research medals to people who were both servicemen and women and civilians:

* Long service in the ranks - what happened after discharge?

* Volunteer in the forces and back into civvy street?

* 'Weekend soldier' over weekends and office worker during the week?

* Tough times ? Poverty or riches ?

* Marriage. Children ?

* What legacy left ?

* A life lived to the full, filled with ups and downs.

William

[redbarchetta]

William,

I don't collect, so shouldn't comment, but do some people deliberately collect KIA groups ? That does seem a little morbid. I can understand someone collecting 3rd Battallion Gloucester Reg, for example, and hence buying any groups, KIA or otherwise, but not sure I would want to collect ONLY KIA groups - for a start it would make your collection very one-sided, and as you say, doesn't give any opportunity for 'nice stories' to go alongside the 'killed at 18 in his first week in France' tragedy stories.

Any 'only KIA' collectors out there care to comment ?

Jim

[Archer]

Before the other Pals come in ...

Yes, there are collectors who deliberately collect KIA. That said, most collectors I know will collect almost anything if the price is right. But there are those for whom KIA is a specific collection theme.

Regards

William