Obsolete and Antique firearms new law in UK.

[Stoppage Drill]

Such a conviction would show that the person is not bounded by the limits the rest of us recognise, and who knows what other boundaries they may cross? I'd agree with the ban on firearms capable of causing death or serious injury - not so sure how much sense it makes to include antiques unless in good working order and possessed along with suitable ammunition or makings.

Regards,

MikB

Your first sentence encapsulates a perfectly acceptable point of view. My own feelings may differ, but we are hopefully discussing objective facts in this thread.

The problem with some antiques is that they are easily acquired, without restriction, yet (even if unfireable) they still pose a genuine threat, that of fear of death or violence. That is why the law treats possession of imitation firearms in the commission of a crime, or in a public place, with the same severity as if a real firearm were used.

Whilst s.58 allows the virtually unrestricted possession of antique firearms, the same does not apply to ammunition. Whilst you may own, say, a .577/.450 Martini Henry rifle without a firearm certificate, you may not acquire or possess a round of ammunition for it.

British firearms law is convoluted, to say the least, made worse by conflicting judgements and mad interpretations. For example, whilst you may not possess rifle or pistol ammunition without a Firearm Certificate, you may possess the components.* A few years ago the law changed to slightly restrict the acquisition of primers, but whilst acquisition is controlled, possession is not. Likewise, you may possess shotgun cartridges without a certificate; the only control is that a Shot Gun Certificate must be produced when you buy them. A person who does not have an SGC can acquire cartridges if in possession of another person's SGC and a written letter of authority from that other person . . . . where's the sense ?

* Acquisition and possession of gunpowder (black powder) is regulated by Explosives Certificate, but modern smokeless powders are available without certificate. There is a premises licencing requirement for the place of storage, but only if relatively large quantities are held.

As an extension to this particular train of thought; s.58 of the Act allows possession of "an antique firearms possessed as an ornament or curiosity." Quite so, but the term "antique" is not defined, and courts have used various measures, one of which (Lord Denning I think ? ? ? ) was "not of this century". That is obviously out of date now, and when it was said it would have excluded WW1 and Boer War weaponry. However, another measure has traditionally been 100 years.

The Home Office and police have tried to establish a system based on an "obsolete calibre list" but this has absolutely no force in law. I am aware of cases where persons have been prosecuted for possession of old guns which are chambered for cartridges not on the list, and have been found Not Guilty. Whilst the cases I am thinking of have involved sporting guns, the principle would apply to all weapons. I would never encourage anybody to test the law unless they are fully aware of the risks - in fact I would say, "for God's sake don't do it", but I would not be in the least bit surprised if some attempt is made soon to deal in WW1 weaponry under section 58, attempting to rely on the concept of 100 years old = "antique".

[JKindred]

Are firearms laws standardized across the UK or are local jurisdictions allowed to add their own on top of the national laws?

Just curious on that aspect.

[auchonvillerssomme]

_{They have to follow guidance - see para 8.3 onwards here -}

_{https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/329845/GuideFirearmsLicensingLawJune14.pdf}

[Stoppage Drill]

They are standardized, though the Channel islands, Isle of Man and Northern Ireland have their own laws. Scotland has managed to introduce Scotland-only laws controlling air guns.

The police have considerable discretionary powers; as there are (I think) 43 separate police forces across England*, there are lots of discrepancies as to how their powers are imposed. Home Office guidelines are sometimes treated as though they have legal force. The Home Office issue additional authorities to possess and trade prohibited weapons (machine guns, semi-auto full bore rifles, pistols, and several other categories.)

Many shooters think that there should be a central firearms licensing authority, detached rom the police.

* plus a few non-Home Office forces such as MoD Police, British Transport Police, and others. Only the Home Office forces issue Firearms Certificates.

Edit: To address ACV's point. The forces do not have to follow HO Guidance, though they are strongly encouraged to do so. Last I heard was that the police were trying to have the HO Guidance document uprated to the status of ACoP (Approved Code of Practice). I am not sure whether that has yet been achieved. One problem is that courts will usually ignore the HO Guidance if it is not backed by solid law. Police are often embarrassed when they have tried to rely on this Guidance in court.

Anyway, with respect, we are away from GW topicality here, so this is my last post on this issue.

[trajan]

Anyway, with respect, we are away from GW topicality here, so this is my last post on this issue.

But thanks for all that input - I am not a gun man, but it is always interesting to learn something about the ins and outs of the law on the matter.

[auchonvillerssomme]

^{You are right I should have said there is guidance and left it at that.}

[JKindred]

They are standardized, though the Channel islands, Isle of Man and Northern Ireland have their own laws. Scotland has managed to introduce Scotland-only laws controlling air guns.

The police have considerable discretionary powers; as there are (I think) 43 separate police forces across England*, there are lots of discrepancies as to how their powers are imposed. Home Office guidelines are sometimes treated as though they have legal force. The Home Office issue additional authorities to possess and trade prohibited weapons (machine guns, semi-auto full bore rifles, pistols, and several other categories.)

Many shooters think that there should be a central firearms licensing authority, detached rom the police.

* plus a few non-Home Office forces such as MoD Police, British Transport Police, and others. Only the Home Office forces issue Firearms Certificates.

Edit: To address ACV's point. The forces do not have to follow HO Guidance, though they are strongly encouraged to do so. Last I heard was that the police were trying to have the HO Guidance document uprated to the status of ACoP (Approved Code of Practice). I am not sure whether that has yet been achieved. One problem is that courts will usually ignore the HO Guidance if it is not backed by solid law. Police are often embarrassed when they have tried to rely on this Guidance in court.

Anyway, with respect, we are away from GW topicality here, so this is my last post on this issue.

Thank you, that was very informative.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I add this link only for the very last sentence....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2694733/Police-uncover-armoury-firearms-weapons-including-5ft-long-MISSILE-pensioners-home.html

[Beerhunter]

The whole thing is not only a complete waste of time (see below) but makes the 1968 Firearms Act even more obtuse. (It is a non-Firearms Act amending a Firearms Act.)

Here is why it is a waste of time. Section 58 of the 1968 Firearms Act provides an exemption ONLY as follows: "Nothing in this Act relating to firearms shall apply to an antique firearm which is sold, transferred, purchased, acquired or possessed as a curiosity or ornament."

In the case of the Lee Rigby murder for example, the new amendment would not have applied (not enough previous) BUT the miscreant could not have claimed exemption under the Act current at the time because the firearm was clearly not being "possessed as a curiosity or ornament." Even if he had got previous, it would simply have meet that he was breaking an extra law, along with all the others - including murder!

This was new legislation is because ACPO failed to get the "Obsolete Calibres" list in "Guidance" reduced as they wanted (especially .44 Russion) and so the politicians gave them this as a sop.

[Beerhunter]

I would not be in the least bit surprised if some attempt is made soon to deal in WW1 weaponry under section 58, attempting to rely on the concept of 100 years old = "antique".

I, on the other hand, would. The Home Office spotted the "hundred years" problem many years ago. Shortly after WWII the HO decreed that any firearm manufactured after 1939 should be considered "modern" and therefore could not benefit from the definition of being "antique". You may not like this definition but it has been used by the courts now for over sixty years.

One of the ways that this is felt in the UK is muzzle loaders. In most of the world these black powder guns and their "antique" ignition systems are "off-ticket" but not in the UK - due entirely to this ruling.