auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Following on from the appalling events in Woolwich the law is changing regarding the restriction of sale and possession of obsolete calibre and antique firearms, as I understand it the law only affects those who are already barred from owning a firearm for example ex-cons and the keeping of records of sale of such items. This law won't affect most of us, but there are dealers and collectors out there who have served time and there are also general antique collectors who have the odd pistol in their cabinets, I think it may well have an impact. I can't find any official information on the subject apart from some newspaper reports. Can anyone link us to the official information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 http://basc.org.uk/firearms/changes-to-legislation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Cheers Graeme, there are dealers doing the circuits and collectors who are permanently prohibited who will be a little shocked when they read the papers today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Served a custodial of three years plus or received a custodial or suspended sentence of between three months and three years are banned from having antique firearms, effective from today and they had until today to dispose! TT Ps deacs not included Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Net effect of this is probably to criminalise more law abiding, than it will effect that operate outside the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Net effect of this is probably to criminalise more law abiding, than it will effect that operate outside the law. One can't be law abiding if one has a criminal record? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2014 I would suggest that those people it doesn't affect now will be a bit wary of spending large amounts of money on antique/obsolete calibre weapons, just in case the law changes again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 One can't be law abiding if one has a criminal record? Mike Course you can, people change! Even the Law regards offences as spent after a certain period of time. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Following on from the appalling events in Woolwich ... A hard case makes a bad law... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Course you can, people change! Even the Law regards offences as spent after a certain period of time. Ray OK my wording was *****. If you have done your sentence/time whatever, then why should it be a problem? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Net effect of this is probably to criminalise more law abiding, than it will effect that operate outside the law. Given that the latter are much more likely to use or provide a weapon that can kill or maim some one shouldn't the emphasis be on risk to the public rather than dealer's pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Given that the latter are much more likely to use or provide a weapon that can kill or maim some one shouldn't the emphasis be on risk to the public rather than dealer's pockets Is there a case in point? Did the murderers of Lee Rigby use an antique firearm to scare off the public or something? I don't recall any recent case of an antique firearm doing any killing or maiming. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Yes, it was an obsolete caliber 9.4mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 And my understanding was that the man with the gun had no ammunition and it was not in a fireable condition at the time. Like I said, hard case (something that stirs emotional responses) usually results in bad law (a law specific to a particular case that then affects many others and is frequently unenforceable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 So that would include flintlocks then? You always have been able to buy antique percussion colts etc, the fact that they are not used in bank jobs would indficate even the criminal class think their obsolete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Now, what are they going to do when somebody who was trained to use a biro or pencil as an offensive weapon does so??? Next it'll be MPython and a banana, use thereof in unarmed combat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 So that would include flintlocks then? You always have been able to buy antique percussion colts etc, the fact that they are not used in bank jobs would indficate even the criminal class think their obsolete. Yes. But the changes are only going to affect somebody who has received a prison sentence. Cartridge firing firearms have been included in the "antique" provision as long as they are not fired, and so long as the chambering is considered obsolete. The problem, as the Home Office and the police see it, is that some guns - especially pistols - may be chambered for an "obsolete" round, but can still chamber some other currently available round. The Kent RFD Mick Shepherd was hammered by the Met over their suspicion that he was selling obsolete calibre pistols which could easily be used. He was completely exonerated after spending several months in custody on remand. His colourful explanation may not be to everybody's taste, but here it is anyway. http://www.micksguns.com/mick's%20story%20-%20the%20facts.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Now, what are they going to do when somebody who was trained to use a biro or pencil as an offensive weapon does so??? Next it'll be MPython and a banana, use thereof in unarmed combat... if you have a banana - or any other object - in your pocket, and use it in the course of a crime to convince somebody that it is a gun, then British law will call it an "imitation firearm." The penalties are the same as for a real firearm - and why not ? The fear caused to a victim is just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Good job Mae West is no longer around then...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 15 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2014 This was my original point, there are dealers and collectors of obsolete calibres and antiques who have served sentences long enough to be barred from owning a firearm for life. That will certainly affect their livelihoods and cost them money and aggravation. There will no doubt be, from some, a distinct lack of sympathy, but for those who collect and/or deal and have never been caught or have led blameless lives it must make you wonder what will happen next, is it worth keeping your collection or investing in new items when at the strike of a pen and with little notice it will be rendered valueless. There will certainly be a couple less dealers, it will affect auction houses and the collector who wants to sell an item, records will have to be kept. Yes. But the changes are only going to affect somebody who has received a prison sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 It is very easy to appeal against a prohibition deriving from s.21 of the principal (1968 as amended) Firearms Act. The procedures differ from the s.44 appeals where the refusal to issue (or revocation of) a Firearm and/or Shot Gun Certificate is the issue at stake. One of the unfortunate problems is that the prohibition does not take any account of the quality of the criminal act. If somebody goes to prison for a violent crime, most people might well think that the person should never again legally possess firearms. But if someone is convicted for, say mobile phone hacking, what purpose is served by removing their right to enjoy shooting ? The prohibition may be overturned by a Crown Court judge. In my experience, police sometimes simply write to the judge and state that they have no objection to the appellant's request, and the whole thing is dealt with in a few moments without the need for anyone to attend court. If the police oppose the prohibition, then the two sides have to fight it out. Judges are usually wise and sensible and certainly not automatically on the side of the police in matters affecting individual rights and liberties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 It only takes a lapse of concentration while driving, and a three month suspended sentence could happen to anybody! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 A simple lapse of concentration, not compounded by any other act of recklessness or dangerous behaviour, is very unlikely to result in any prison sentence. I know of a case of a man who was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving. He was sent to prison (I forget the exact length of sentence, but it was sufficiently long to cause a 5 year prohibition). After his release from prison, the man in question appealed against the prohibition. The police objected, motivated (I am inclined to think) by the apparently callous reaction of the man after the 'accident'. The appellant was successful, prohibition lifted. This occurred within the last two or three years, at Bristol Crown Court IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 ....But if someone is convicted for, say mobile phone hacking, what purpose is served by removing their right to enjoy shooting ? Such a conviction would show that the person is not bounded by the limits the rest of us recognise, and who knows what other boundaries they may cross? I'd agree with the ban on firearms capable of causing death or serious injury - not so sure how much sense it makes to include antiques unless in good working order and possessed along with suitable ammunition or makings. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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