acoy1stbatttigers Posted 12 July , 2014 Share Posted 12 July , 2014 Hi Everyone I have seen this shield today, has anyone got any opinions ? Has marks on a back support" No1 1914 AG?" has recently been re painted. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 July , 2014 Share Posted 12 July , 2014 Can you post a larger (and clearer ) picture please? I cannot make out what I'm supposed to be looking at There was a Swiss made combined entrenching tool and sniper shield in 1914. It was actually pretty useless for either role but Sam Hughes the Canadian Minister for War signed a deal to equip the CEF with them. All a bit whiffy as the patent was owned by his secretary (who like the tool doubled up her roles also being his mistress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acoy1stbatttigers Posted 12 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2014 Hi Many thanks for your kind reply , I am have trouble resizing some other images to make them small enough for the forum, I could reply to you be my email ww1tiger@hotmail.co.uk. Regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 12 July , 2014 Share Posted 12 July , 2014 Hi ww1tiger, That's a French shield. The holes on either side are attachment points to enable it to be hung round the neck when advancing. However, in reality they were mostly built into the trench parapet. The Italians also used this model of shield. In my opinion the subject of shields, or loophole plates, is one that is not well covered and if you want more information let me know and I will see what I can come up with. In particular, I have somewhere several photos of them in use. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acoy1stbatttigers Posted 12 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2014 Hi Micheal Many thanks indeed for the information, I had not seen anything like it before! I must know decide if I am to add it to my Great war collection ! Kind regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 13 July , 2014 Share Posted 13 July , 2014 Hi Jonathan, Attached, in case it is of interest, is a photo of an IWM photo showing the shield in an Italian trench. If you look through French trench scenes on the internet I am sure you will be able to find more. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 13 July , 2014 Share Posted 13 July , 2014 Quite an unusual piece, I have never seen one first hand, very nice to have. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Larger picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 I am not so sure that the holes are designed for the plate to be worn, I believe that the holes were provided so that other plates could be attached and form a continuous line. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Khaki, Here's a contemporary illustration of the use of the shield taken from Armi ed Equipaggiamenti Dell'Esercito Italiano Nella Grande Guerre by Nevio Mantoan. String put through the holes on each side forms a loop to enable the shield to be carried as shown. I have an illustration somewhere showing the upper holes used to form a loop to hang the shield around the neck. Of course, you are correct that the holes may also be used to secure the shield to others or to the ground. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 He doesn't appear to be wearing it round the neck bur on the fore arm rather like a form of buckler (swashed or otherwise). Indeed the two protruding support pieces would make it very inconvenient to wear on the chest. There were British infantry shields designed to be linked in much the same way that Khaki suggests and the part of the illustration that you only half show suggests that this Italian shield could be used in the same manner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Centurian, You are correct - he isn't wearing it round his neck which is why I commented that the two loops would enable the shield to be carried as shown. I will, when I have time, try to find the illustration of the shield being worn suspended around the soldier's neck. In the meantime you will have to take my word for the fact that I have just tried and the shield in my collection fits my chest with the supports on either side. I suppose a larger person could wear it with the supports facing forwards? The advantage of wearing the shield suspended around the neck is that both hands are left free. If you look at the caption on the illustration with my last post you will see that it is described as the "Modello Francese". Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Centurian, You are correct - he isn't wearing it round his neck which is why I commented that the two loops would enable the shield to be carried as shown. I will, when I have time, try to find the illustration of the shield being worn suspended around the soldier's neck. In the meantime you will have to take my word for the fact that I have just tried and the shield in my collection fits my chest with the supports on either side. I suppose a larger person could wear it with the supports facing forwards? The advantage of wearing the shield suspended around the neck is that both hands are left free. If you look at the caption on the illustration with my last post you will see that it is described as the "Modello Francese". Regards, Michael. in Italian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 14 July , 2014 Share Posted 14 July , 2014 Sorry, I misjudged the size and weight, I stand corrected. I was comparing it to the German sniper shield, here is a photo of my one which although moveable is designed for a fixed position being too heavy to use as a body shield when moving. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Hi Khaki, Nice shield - thanks for showing. In fact, the German Infanterieschild weighed about the same as the French shield and was also used in mobile operations. Interestingly, the Germans developed a head shield that was bolted to one side of the shield increasing the weight significantly. A not very good photo, taken from the excellent Grabenkrieg - German Trench Warfare Vol. 1 by Oliver Richter, is attached. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Hi Khaki, Nice shield - thanks for showing. In fact, the German Infanterieschild weighed about the same as the French shield and was also used in mobile operations. Interestingly, the Germans developed a head shield that was bolted to one side of the shield increasing the weight significantly. A not very good photo, taken from the excellent Grabenkrieg - German Trench Warfare Vol. 1 by Oliver Richter, is attached. Regards, Michael. A German Ned Kelly Are the French shields rare? I've seen plenty of the ones khaki showed but don't think I've ever seen the French version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 Hi Tony, A difficult question to answer. The answer is probably that they are not that rare. However, collectors are mostly not interested - I am an exception - and they are, or were, certainly not sought after. Dealers generally don't bother with them as they are heavy, take up a lot of space and are not that valuable. In the circumstances they don't appear on the market that often. Having said that, they are rare in excellent condition with original paint as mostly, because of the lack of interest, they were left rusting on the battlefields for many years. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 17 July , 2014 Share Posted 17 July , 2014 Michael, I was at a fair the other week where I saw several of what I would call the 'common' ones as in khaki's post above, all at around 125 euros each. They all looked as you mentioned, like they'd just come from a battlefield. I have what I believe is a German shield which was given to me because the previous owner didn't have space and found it very heavy, unfortunately I didn't have the space either so it lived outside for quite a while and lost much of what was left of its green/grey paint. I'll have to try and keep an eye out for the French ones now that I know what they look like. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acoy1stbatttigers Posted 20 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2014 Hi Everyone The shield has now been added to my collection and is having the "new" paint job removed. It is defiantly made of steel not cast iron, it has lost one of its feet. Thanks to everyone that has helped. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 20 July , 2014 Share Posted 20 July , 2014 Congratulations, a nice addition to your collection khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 20 July , 2014 Share Posted 20 July , 2014 Jonathan, Please post a pic when you have it looking the way you like it. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stanley53 Posted 18 May , 2015 Share Posted 18 May , 2015 Hi Everybody, I wonder if anybody has some more specific info on how these were painted. I've acquired a reproduction sniper shield, which will be used as a loophole in a trench being created for a great war event. It's currently in it's bare steel form and I wondered what the paint jobs would have been like on the originals. I presume the RE Special Works guys would have done specific camo jobs in some cases, but what colour would they have been 'out of the box'? Cheers Jase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 19 May , 2015 Share Posted 19 May , 2015 One thing that you should be aware of when mounting it. Facing it forward would be suicide for the user. Although that is often how they appear in (posed) photographs and reconstructed trenches, common (military) sense would place it in enfilade. Does anyone have any (un-posed) pictures of shields in actual use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 26 May , 2015 Share Posted 26 May , 2015 Correct me if I am wrong, but I read that German snipers often modified their bullets. The bullet was pulled from the cartridge casing and inverted and re-clamped. This meant that the bullet was no longer pointed but had a flat face. Once fired at the metal shield, the now flat end of the projectile strikes the steel/iron without penetration, but the shockwave of the impact caused shrapnel like pieces to be fractured from the inner side (defensive side) of the shield causing injury to those behind it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 27 May , 2015 Share Posted 27 May , 2015 Correct me if I am wrong, but I read that German snipers often modified their bullets. The bullet was pulled from the cartridge casing and inverted and re-clamped. This meant that the bullet was no longer pointed but had a flat face. Once fired at the metal shield, the now flat end of the projectile strikes the steel/iron without penetration, but the shockwave of the impact caused shrapnel like pieces to be fractured from the inner side (defensive side) of the shield causing injury to those behind it The idea is something of a bone of contention in Great War circles, and has been heavily argued on in the past - a couple of good examples linked below: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142407&hl=%2Breversed+%2Bbullet http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66649&page=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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