Images of black British soldiers on the Western Front.

[Derek Black]

A book on Arthur Roberts, mentioned earlier in the thread , using his war diary has been released.

As Good As Any Man: Scotlands Black Tommy.

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/products/isbn/9780750953740/13433677346

[tony paley]

Some yrs back I saw a picture but can't recall if in a magazine or on the web that was very interesting. It showed a grp of about 4-6 black British soldiers all wearing cap badges of the RFA or the RGA, can't recall which or any other details. I do think it was taken in UK. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Could there be a topic on here already addressing this subject?

the RFA and RGA have the same cap badge, the Royal Artillery. Bermuda sent at least 4 contingents to France. The Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Regt. consisted of white Bermudians, whilst the Bermuda Volunteer Artillery was an RGA Coastal unit and ORs were Black. Many served on the Western Front with Siege or Heavy batteries of the RGA.

Tony P

[Surreyguardsman]

New to this Forum and am slowly working my way through the various threads.

Not sure if this thread is still of interest but I thought I would add this photo of a Black Soldier with his Comrades in a tented camp.

Regards Simon

[Guest Recognize]

On 21 March 2016 at 15:58, Surreyguardsman said:

New to this Forum and am slowly working my way through the various threads.

Not sure if this thread is still of interest but I thought I would add this photo of a Black Soldier with his Comrades in a tented camp.

Regards Simon

Hi I have a big interest in this subject and wanted to follow it up. Can you confirm if their cap badge is the Coldstream guards? If so this picture could re write history?

[dundeesown]

I would have a go with The Kings Royal Rifle Corps for the badge.

Gary

[Guest]

   Not much good on cap badges myself but I will be in my local Local Studies later- which is the London Borough of Redbridge in the east of London. Which is about half a mile away from the address of the photographer in Ley Street, Ilford. And just beyond that is a large park-Valentines Park- which, given the photographer was likely the nearest available, is more than likely the setting. ( Hmm-Im sure that my sons dog has cocked his leg against that tree in the background......) I dont recognize the photographer's name but will see what turns up in local directories. There was a photographers very close to that address, which might be the same one, owned by a Mr. Gilbey and his father-still boarded up-the younger Mr. Gilbey had promised his glass plate negatives to the local Local Studies but he went ga-ga and I fear -as with so much- it all went in the skip-or rather into Sonny White removals  3 years ago and then to Jenkins Lane. (Civic Amenity Site-ie drive in tip)

[Guest]

 If its KRRC, then a good sort on this Forum up in Cheshire should confirm it.

    If so, my guess would be: (From Long,Long Trail)

18th (Service) Battalion (Arts & Crafts)
Formed at Gidea Park in London by Major Sir Herbert Raphael on 4 June 1915.
October 1915 : moved to Witley and came under orders of 122nd Brigade in 41st Division. Moved to Aldershot in November 1915, on to Witley in February and thence back to Aldershot.
3 May 1916 : landed at Le Havre.
November 1917 : moved with the Division to Italy but returned to France in March 1918.

 

        Gidea Park and thereabouts- outskirts of Romford, used by all sorts during the war but especially Artists Rifles at Hare Hall and New Zealanders. I have seen photographs of soldiers taken at Gidea Park by photographers from Ilford, so that strengthens the odds to 1915-1916 

[Derek Black]

Looks exactly like the KRRC badge to me.

 

[johntanner]

Man 2nd left looks like he has a Rifle Bde. cap badge on his belt.

[Coldstreamer]

19 hours ago, Recognize said:

Hi I have a big interest in this subject and wanted to follow it up. Can you confirm if their cap badge is the Coldstream guards? If so this picture could re write history?

 

Why re write history ?  I know of at least 2 non white Coldstreamers in ww1. Def not Coldstream 

[Stoppage Drill]

Agreed that the cap badges that can be seen are KRRC, but the black soldier's cap badge cannot be seen. However, he is wearing brass buttons, whereas his comrades have the KRRC black buttons, so he is not likely to be KRRC himself.

 

What's on the buckle of the belt worn by the man with the open jacket ? Is he wearing the dress black leather belt of the KRRC ?

[Guest Recognize]

Thanks guys all very useful information. @Coldstreamer Identifying the different regiments that black soldiers served in during the 1st WW. We're trying to list all the regiments that black soldiers served in as we know that the men served in British regiments and not just the British West Indies regiment. Could you share details on the two Coldstream guys you mentioned please.

 

Edited 22 December , 2016 by Recognize
.

[Terry_Reeves]

Inland Water Transport RE. They had a Coloured Section recruited in the UK for work with the IWT in Mesopotamia. A number came from Cardiff where they had either left their ships to enlist or were men who had settled in the area having married local girls. They were treated quite badly. I posted their letter of complaint on the forum a couple of years back.

 

TR

[Guest]

Terry- Do the dates fit???    KRRC badges somewhere near Ilford suggests  1915.  Were the IWT companies up and going then?  Or based anywhere near Ilford?

     My experience with local casualties is that IWT were boosted greatly by older men on conscription who were picked out by RE to do their civilian jobs in Mespot. My area (Wanstead) had many who were at management level in the docks .They were picked up after Kut for a stronger plod up the Tigris to Baghdad.

 

 

 

[GFW]

Hi Michael,

 

I've just found these information. Perhaps useful for you ?

 

Best regards,

 

Pierre

369th Infantry Regiment New York
World War One

History

Parent unit constituted 2 June 1913 in the New York National Guard as the 15th Infantry Regiment. Organized 29 June 1916 at New York. Mustered into Federal service 25 July 1917 at Camp Whitman , New York; drafted into Federal service 5 August 1917. (15th Battalion organized 3 August 1917 in the New York Guard at New York to replace regiment in Federal service; expanded and redesignated 31 July 1918 as the 15th Infantry, New York Guard).

Assigned 1 December 1917 to the 185th Infantry Brigade. (185 Infantry Brigade assigned 5 January 1918 to the 93rd Division [Provisional]).

Reorganized and redesignated 1 March 1918 as the 369th Infantry. Relieved 8 May 1918 from assignment to the 185th Infantry Brigade; assigned 9 September 1918 to the French 161st Division; relieved 12 December 1918 from assignment to the French 161st Division. Demobilized 28 February 1919 at Camp Upton, New York.

The recruitment took place in Harlem, New York.
The battalion trained at Camp Whitman (Poughkeepsie, N.Y.); guard duty in New York City; in further training in South Carolina; shipped overseas 27 December 1917; regimental band toured France; served within the French army in General Henri Gouraud’s 4th Army; in the 16th French Division.

During its service the regiment suffered 1500 casualties and took place in the following campaigns:

Champagne – Marne
Meuse – Argonne
Champagne 1918
Alsace 1918

  

 

[MBrockway]

Just spotted this and am rushing out on Xmas errands.  Will have a close look at the possible KRRC badges over the holidays.  be aware though that several London Regiment battalions with rifles traditions had very similar badges and wore blackened buttons.

Mark

 

[Derek Black]

7 hours ago, GFW said:

Hi Michael,

 

I've just found these information. Perhaps useful for you ?

 

Best regards,

 

Pierre

Pierre,

 

The thread is regarding British soldiers, these are Americans.

 

Cheers,
Derek.

[Carnbo Lad]

Hi,

 

Recently came across this card, thought it might be of interest

 

 

 

Gordon

[MBrockway]

On 14/12/2016 at 10:05, Stoppage Drill said:

What's on the buckle of the belt worn by the man with the open jacket ? Is he wearing the dress black leather belt of the KRRC ?

No, he's not wearing any KRRC dress belt.  It's a money belt decorated with what could indeed be an RB badge, but I'm by no means certain on that.  I am trying to get a good blow-up out of my graphics tools!

 

It may well be a souvenir belt with other badges out of sight.

 

See Grovetown's catalogue page in this post (and also see the rest of that topic).  Also search whole Forum on Stable/money/hate belts.

 

 

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

On 14/12/2016 at 10:05, Stoppage Drill said:

Agreed that the cap badges that can be seen are KRRC, but the black soldier's cap badge cannot be seen. However, he is wearing brass buttons, whereas his comrades have the KRRC black buttons, so he is not likely to be KRRC himself.

 

It is not unusual to see KRRC and RB groups some with blackened rifles buttons and some with brass GS buttons. 

 

Here's an RB rifleman with GS buttons with two other RB & a KRRC sporting rifle buttons.  On the right is a KRRC rifleman in GS buttons from the other end of the same photo.  Judging by the Good Conduct chevrons and wound stripes, this is not a new unit suffering early war button shortages.  Also at least four of the men in this same group have 2-3 Overseas chevrons.

 

 

The general rule is that blackened buttons is good evidence for a man being rifles, but lack of them does not disprove it.

 

IMHO saying he's not likely to be KRRC is too strong.  They're clearly close comrades and all the other four are clearly badged the same.

 

Mark

 

PS Jury's still out on whether these are KRRs or London Regt, but even if latter, the above would still apply

 

Edited 24 December , 2016 by MBrockway
Pics added

[MBrockway]

On 22/12/2016 at 19:44, Terry_Reeves said:

Inland Water Transport RE. They had a Coloured Section recruited in the UK for work with the IWT in Mesopotamia. A number came from Cardiff where they had either left their ships to enlist or were men who had settled in the area having married local girls. They were treated quite badly. I posted their letter of complaint on the forum a couple of years back.

TR

 

Terry- Do the dates fit???    KRRC badges somewhere near Ilford suggests  1915.  Were the IWT companies up and going then?  Or based anywhere near Ilford?

     My experience with local casualties is that IWT were boosted greatly by older men on conscription who were picked out by RE to do their civilian jobs in Mespot. My area (Wanstead) had many who were at management level in the docks .They were picked up after Kut for a stronger plod up the Tigris to Baghdad.

 

 

[MBrockway]

On 13/12/2016 at 16:30, Derek Black said:

Looks exactly like the KRRC badge to me.

 

 

There are several London Regiment battalions with KRRC-style badges, the differences being in the centres and the cross arms either blank, only carrying South Africa battle honours, or the volunteer favourite "PRO ARIS ET FOCIS".

 

[Edit (for completeness): P.S. - also differences in wording in circlet and tablet]

 

This photo is too indistinct to see centres and if the cross arms are blank or not

 

However for the LR rifle battalions we would expect to see three decker TF shoulder titles with the bottom row curved - e.g. T|11|COUNTY OF LONDON.  The handful of other TF battalions outside of London that used the maltese cross would have similar TF STs.  Since these are absent, I'm happy to go with this group being KRRC.

 

Mark

Edited 24 December , 2016 by MBrockway
Added some extra detail on diffs

[Derek Black]

Thanks for the clarification, not too much difference between the KRRC and LR varient.

 

Cheers,
Derek.

[MBrockway]

5 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

Thanks for the clarification, not too much difference between the KRRC and LR varient.

 

Cheers,
Derek.

I did a post ages ago that had a comparison gallery of the KRRC cap badge versus these LR and other TF maltese cross badges, plus the Church Lads Brigade cadets, but it must be at least five years back!

 

[MBrockway]

On 13/12/2016 at 15:25, voltaire60 said:

 If its KRRC, then a good sort on this Forum up in Cheshire should confirm it.

    If so, my guess would be: (From Long,Long Trail)

18th (Service) Battalion (Arts & Crafts)
Formed at Gidea Park in London by Major Sir Herbert Raphael on 4 June 1915.
October 1915 : moved to Witley and came under orders of 122nd Brigade in 41st Division. Moved to Aldershot in November 1915, on to Witley in February and thence back to Aldershot.
3 May 1916 : landed at Le Havre.
November 1917 : moved with the Division to Italy but returned to France in March 1918.

 

        Gidea Park and thereabouts- outskirts of Romford, used by all sorts during the war but especially Artists Rifles at Hare Hall and New Zealanders. I have seen photographs of soldiers taken at Gidea Park by photographers from Ilford, so that strengthens the odds to 1915-1916 

That was my first thought as soon as I saw "Ilford", but .....

 

We have come across Mr Flatan of 88 Ley Street, Ilford before!

 
He quickly carved out a good trade doing group photographs of units in the area, but when 13/Essex - the "West Ham Pals" -  were formed, he followed them around the country as they trained.etc.   Perhaps he was a Hammers fan!

 

13/Essex were in 100 Brigade, 33rd Division.

 

There a number of Flatan pictures of 13/Essex which have definitely been identified as at Clipstone Camp in Notts when 33rd Div was training there in Summer 1915, and they have a very similar tented camp look and feel to this one.

 

16/KRRC was in the same brigade and also at Clipstone, so I think this group could in fact be 16/KRRC, rather than 18/KRRC

 

I'll do a bit more digging after Xmas.  Vested interest:  16/KRRC was my grandfather's battalion

 

Sorry to revise this after you'd already seen the earlier version - if I'd suspected you might be awake I would have deleted the ealrier version and started afresh.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 December , 2016 by MBrockway