No record of service/death

[Ludford101]

Hi Johnboy... here is the full gravestone ... and with regard to the 1911 census entry for mother and one brother .. that is Leonard .. and he dies in 1951..

Cheers

Gary

[johnboy]

The headstone inscription is of no help in trying to find out when Georges name was added.

I was replying to CGW post #19 and assumed it referred to this 1911 census

Registration district: Sculcoates Registration District Number: 521 Sub-registration district: West Sculcoates ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Piece: 28722 Household Members: Name Age Elizabeth Stanewell 59 George Henry Stanewell 29

[tootrock]

I offer the following from the Daily Mail, Friday April 11th, 1902. Although it does not help the case it may be of interest.

I think this must refer to our man, who was described as a shop assistant in the census.

Martin

[Bardess]

The oldest sister doesn't help matters either. She died in Skirlaugh, Yorkshire in 1931

[Ludford101]

Again ... thanks for all the efforts going into this ...

regarding the headstone ... I did go and view this in person last week and although no expert on the stonemason's/engraver's art it would appear to have been done by the same hand ... but again could be upto 40yrs separating the original from the addition...

Martin the extract from the newspaper is very, very interesting and may go a long way to explaining a few things ... sounds like a family trait of depression ... very sorry tale...

Gary

[CGM]

..........

I was replying to CGW post #19 and assumed it referred to this 1911 census

Registration district: Sculcoates Registration District Number: 521 Sub-registration district: West Sculcoates ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Piece: 28722 Household Members: Name Age Elizabeth Stanewell 59 George Henry Stanewell 29

The 1911 census I quoted was for mother Jessie and younger son Leonard. (Rae STANEWELL was married to Jessie Matilda TOSH)

CGM

[johnboy]

Thanks for correcting me.

[Loader]

If he might have taken his own life burial in a churchyard (consecrated ground) may have been denied. So if not actually buried there his name added to the stone but public story is KIA. Amid the overwhelming death & destruction of the time would anyone be likely to check out the claim? So no unit listed so none could be checked if questions arose & thus no CWGC as he was not in the service. Just an opinion.

[centurion]

If he might have taken his own life burial in a churchyard (consecrated ground) may have been denied. So if not actually buried there his name added to the stone but public story is KIA. Amid the overwhelming death & destruction of the time would anyone be likely to check out the claim? So no unit listed so none could be checked if questions arose & thus no CWGC as he was not in the service. Just an opinion.

Not by 1916, the CoE had abandoned this archaic practice by then (forced to by law from about 1860). Individual clergy could withhold the full burial service if they considered that their conscience required this but burial could not be denied.

[Loader]

Thanks for clearing that up. Always seemed to me a family had enough grief to handle without having to face this rule. I'm sure there were clergy who still witheld full service & certainly some deceased who deserved no less. I think a compassionate pastor who knew the family would go the full service.

So likely not anything to do with explaining this case.

[johnboy]

I came across a man who enlisted and within a few days committed suicide. If I remember he had a burial and a military headstone.

[Ludford101]

Again thanks for sharing thoughts chaps ... and any ladies..

another possibility is that if the newspaper article is to be believed then wasn't attempted suicide illegal in 1902 and with a history of such in the family coupled with depression maybe a case for be institutionalised in a mental hospital ... could this explain a lack of 1911 census .. were asylum inmates included on the census records ?? and then if he dies in such a place would the death be registered ?? and of course the idea that the family updating the headstone in the post-war early 20's and wanting to hide the fact could have used the ruse KIA over in France etc...

Cheers

Gary

[centurion]

_{Yes included in Census and yes death would be registered (and he would have to be buried somewhere) and if the family wanted to hide the fact they'd just put died on the tombstone (his father's suicide isn't mentioned on it)}

[johnboy]

All of the above is probably possible. I am not sure if people who attempted suicide were considered to be insane and whether there were any 'social services' at the time. I think there were people in workhouses who were labelled insane or imbecile. The 'inmates should be on the census. Whether they are indexed as an individual or listed under the name of the institution I am not sure. May be a search for a workhouse or hospital in the area might shed more light.

[centurion]

All of the above is probably possible. I am not sure if people who attempted suicide were considered to be insane and whether there were any 'social services' at the time. I think there were people in workhouses who were labelled insane or imbecile. The 'inmates should be on the census. Whether they are indexed as an individual or listed under the name of the institution I am not sure. May be a search for a workhouse or hospital in the area might shed more light.

There were certainly asylums. At that time whilst attempted suicide was illegal charges were not always brought and if they were a few days in quod and/or a fine was about the worst penalty. awarded and I don't think it was grounds for commitment - so possible but unlikely

[johnboy]

The Hull Borough Asylum at Willerby Hull might be a start.

[jon_armstrong]

All of the above is probably possible. I am not sure if people who attempted suicide were considered to be insane and whether there were any 'social services' at the time. I think there were people in workhouses who were labelled insane or imbecile. The 'inmates should be on the census. Whether they are indexed as an individual or listed under the name of the institution I am not sure. May be a search for a workhouse or hospital in the area might shed more light.

For institutions, the individuals residing there will still come up on an Ancestry search. The village I am researching had a children's home on its borders and they can definitely be found on the census.

However, since there also isn't any obvious England and Wales death for him (in a wide window before and after 1916) there must be a good chance that sometime after 1901 he left England and Wales and the records are elsewhere.

[auchonvillerssomme]

He doesn't seem to appear in the UK death registers, I can't open my overseas death register disk but I will presume someone else has done so, so the answer is going to be fork out for a death certificate.

[centurion]

All of which adds to the possibility that he was serving with an non Imperial unit and was killed and was buried overseas

Possibilities include:

• The League/Legion of Frontiersmen (Manchester) who entered Belgian service before Britain declared war (some eventually re engaged with British units but some entered French service and some were killed whilst still under Belgian command)
• The French Foreign Legion (my favourite as it's the sort of place a British man might go "to forget" [and your man certainly had problems] pre war) - and as a complete outside possibility
• The Spanish Foreign Legion ( a really suicidal outfit) who were certainly getting killed in 1916 albeit in a totally disconnected war. - and even more improbable but not impossible
• One of the various Mexican factions which did have some Brits in their midsts

[auchonvillerssomme]

^{A slightly different spelling, George Stonewell, is on the emigration list for Australia in 1903. Unfortunately I don't pay enough to Ancestry to access it. That being said all the name variations have been tried for CWGC, for the commonwealth. But as Cent says he could have served elsewhere.}