South Wales Borderers 2nd, 10th, 11th Diaries

[nixtee]

Hi Gwentpal,

 

I wonder if you could help... A friend has asked me to look up some information about Joseph Charles Smart (born 1886) who was in the South Wales Borderers. She has him as a Sargeant Instructor (?) and at some point was at Sniggery Camp, Crosby. He married in December 1916 (registered in West Derby, Lancashire) and his father was Albert Edward Smart.

 

I believe I've found him on the 1911 census as Private Charles Smart (showing birthday plce as Maulding, Kent) in the 2nd South Wales Borderers in South Africa.

 

He survived WW1 and she believes he had 5 or 6 medals in total, but a relative only holds 3 of these.

 

I don't have his service number and can't find his medal card.

 

Any info you may have would be gratefully received.

 

Many thanks

[gwentpal]

Hi Nixtee,

 

Sorry for the delay in answering but since the revamp of the forum i fail to get alerts that people have posted questions.

 

I always start by looking at the Medal Index Cards, unfortunately i can find no card relating to a Joseph Charles Smart, Joseph Smart or even a Charles Smart who served in the South Wales Borderers.

 

With so little to go on i'm afraid i cant help you.

 

Are you in contact with the relative who holds the medals, Joseph would have had his WW1 regiment and service number imprinted on the edge of the medals.

If you could check with this relative then perhaps i could add some info then.

 

Sorry Gwentpal

[RussT]

Hi Gwentpal

 

I wonder if you could comment on/add anything to my early findings so far with regards to 38671 Charles Hardaker (from Lancashire).

 

Medal rolls show he served firstly in the 11th Bn and latterly with the 10th Bn SWBs. No records survive for him. London Gazette (7th Feb 1919) shows he was awarded an MM but can't find the reason for that (don't seem to be able to see anything in the 11th or 10th Bn War Diaries) - any ideas?

 

I've looked at records/info on men with similar service numbers. Seems there were plenty of men (boys really) in this number series (at least in the range 385xx, 386xx and 387xx) who were being called up early 1917 under the MSA once they reached 18 years old (Charles Hardaker was born in 1899, so that fits also for him). All the deaths for men in this number range were in very late 1917, 1918 (some in 1919) and were all aged 19 or 20 years old.

 

Looks like they were called-up to the 65th Training Reserve Battalion (ex 14th Res Bn SWB), Kinmel Park Camp, and then posted (i.e. transferred) to the 3rd Res Bn SWB (in late August 1917) and numbered consecutively in approximate surname alphabetical order.

 

From the 11th Bn War Diary, I see a draft of 120 Other Ranks arrived from the 3rd Bn on 10/11/1917 ( I think via 55/IBD at Rouen), so I was sort of speculating Charles might have been in that draft.

 

I also note that the 11th Bn was disbanded in Feb 1918, and the 10th Bn War Diary states on 06/02/1918 that 51 reinforcements arrived from the 11th Bn - so again I was speculating he might have been in that posting from the 11th Bn to the 10th Bn.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

[Guest Perkins]

Hi all

 

Iv been doing some of my own research on family during the Great War, and iv found a relative that served in the S.W.B (3rd Gwent) 12th Battalion

 

His name was:

 

Charles Augustus James

Army No. : 12/23358

Enlisted : 13/3/15

Discharged : 1/10/17

 

He was from Machen and was shot in the shoulder as far as i am aware.

 

I know that the 12th Battalion (40th Division) faught in The Battle of Ancre, Hindenburgh Line, Fifteen Ravine, Villers Plouich, Beaucamp and La Vacquerie.

 

I would like to find out if C.A.James was 100% in the 12th and to find out a little bit more about the Battalion. The internet only tells you the basics as iv mentioned.

 

 

 

[TrooperKerry]

Hi Gwentpal. Looking into a Notts County footballer, Pvt Andrew Mosley 44424 11th Btn SWB  from Nottingham who lived near my grandad & great uncles. He  was KIA on 03.08.17 at  Passchendaele and i wonder if the WD's give any more info as to the actions that day. I am going to Wipers in October with a group of Notts and Forests fans and we plan to lay a wreath from both clubs. Any snippets would be most appreciated. Regards

Martin

[Guest]

Hi GwentPal,

 

I was wondering if you could shed some light on 9488 Pte Godfrey Charles Tomkins of the 2nd Battalion, SWB.

 

From the research conducted, I have found out that he enlisted on the 31/12/1906 and to my knowledge served with the 2nd Battalion up until the war started in 1914. He embarked into the war at Tsingtao on the 23/09/1914 and then went on to serve at Gallipoli until he was listed as wounded on the Daily Casualty Lists dated 26/07/1915. He was discharged due to war wounds on the 09/06/1916.

 

Is he mentioned at all in the 2nd Battalion war diaries? On the casualty list his rank was Lance Corporal so I'm guessing there is a slim chance? Any other information you have regarding him would be great. 

 

Many thanks for your time,

Jacob 

[Guest kenandjulie]

Hello I hope someone can help. My GGGGUncle was private W Loverideg no 23010 10 th BN South Wales Borderers.  date of entry into theatre of war. 3 December 1915.

He was shot in the head on the 22 january 1916 and died. He is buried at RUE DU BACQUEROT  NO1 MILITARY CEMETERY LAVENTIE.

 

Can anyone tell what happened from the time he arrive at Le Harve to the day he died. my gran told me he was a stretcher bearer . Any info much appreciated. I have a photo of him with 3 cheverons pointing up on his left sleeve. i have no idea what this means.

best

 

Ken

[johnboy]

Is the info about being shot in the head from his service record?

[Guest Mark Raynes Roberts]

Hello Gwentpal,

 

I am trying to find information on my grandfather Lt. Llewellyn Roberts, 11th Division, South Welsh Borderers, who fought at Mametz Wood,
and I believe at Ypres as well. I don't know very much, other than he lived Llysfaen, near Colwyn Bay when he joined up, and was decommissioned

in the February of 1918. Interested to know what other battles he would have fought in, and if there is a way of finding a photograph of him with all the whole of the 11th Battalion?

 

Other questions I have just thought about are:

 

1) I have an engraved silver tray which was presented to him (I imagine on his decommission) from the SWB Officers on 17th July 1918, but it says 53rd SWB? How did he move from 11th Battalion to 53rd? Although my understanding is the 11th was disbanded in France Feb 27, 1918, the tray is made by Harrods, so have to think he was back in England when he received this tray
2) How many men were in 11th Battalion originally and how many survived the WW1?
3) I wondered if there was any mention of him perosnally in dispatches?

 

Dear Gwentpal, any help you might be able to provide would be most appreciated, as it means a great deal to understand his life. Like all the men who returned from the war, he was a changed man and obviously suffered greatly with PTSD which his family did not understand.

Many thanks and hope you might be able to help.

Warm regards,

Mark Raynes Roberts

Toronto, Canada

Edited 8 November , 2016 by Mark Raynes Roberts

[Guest Craigw]

Looking for William g  whitcombe 10th battalion service number 20738.  Just found his medal record today!

[BakeyBoy]

I am looking for some information relating to my Grandfather, Private Bertie Baker (Reg. No. 14557), who served with the 11th Battalion of the South Wales Borderers, entering in to a theatre of war 17th July 1915. His medal car index (Victory, British and 15 Star) shows that he was transferred to the Labour Corps (Reg. No. 514977). Family past me downs have it that he suffered lung damage as a result of gas attacks during WW1. his oldest son's birth certificate gave him as a Army Pensioner Late Private Labour Corps.

Any help, guidance or suggestions would be appreciated.

[kenf48]

26 minutes ago, BakeyBoy said:

I am looking for some information relating to my Grandfather, Private Bertie Baker (Reg. No. 14557), who served with the 11th Battalion of the South Wales Borderers, entering in to a theatre of war 17th July 1915. His medal car index (Victory, British and 15 Star) shows that he was transferred to the Labour Corps (Reg. No. 514977). Family past me downs have it that he suffered lung damage as a result of gas attacks during WW1. his oldest son's birth certificate gave him as a Army Pensioner Late Private Labour Corps.

Any help, guidance or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

I note this is the third request on an individual soldier, which until now have not been acknowledged.  The originator of the thread last visited November.  If seeking information on an individual soldier the most effective way is to start your own thread in the Soldiers sub forum.  

 

That said there is  an anomaly in the service of Pte Baker. The 11th (Service) Battalion (2nd Gwent), 38th (Welsh) Division did not go to France until 4 December 1915.  The service number 14557 was issued at the beginning of September 1914, almost certainly to the 5th Battalion, probably in Newport.  The 5th Battalion were Pioneers in 19th (Western) Division and landed at Le Havre on the 16th July 1915. http://www.1914-1918.net/swb.htm

 

 

At some point he appears to have transferred to the 11th Battalion SWB, and then to the Labour Corps rough guess, to the latter around June 1918.  

Might be worth looking at casualty records, or he may have transferred at his own request/benefit of service.  In the absence of a service record difficult to say.

 

The war diaries can be downloaded from TNA for a nominal sum, or are available on Ancestry if you subscribe.

TNA links

5  Battalion http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353030

11 Battalion http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354170

 

I'd suggest you take look at the parent site the LLT for advice on researching a soldier http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/

 

Ken

[BakeyBoy]

Many many thanks for replying to my post, I have been trying to find out any detail of my grandfather's action for thirteen years to no avail. By coincidence, just today, I 'Googled' Pte Bert Baker South Wales Borders and found the newspaper article I have transcribed below, and knew it must of referred to him as it was sent to what I know was then his father, Williams, address in Tiverton, Devon. 

So you are quite correct in that he was somewhere in France, in the thick of shelling on Christmas Day 1915.

From the Exeter and Plymouth Gazette 07 January 1916

Pte. B. Baker, of the Welsh Borderers, son of Mr Baker, of Prospect Place, Tiverton, writing home from the firing line, describes the scenes in and around the trenches in the locality in which he was placed during Christmastide. “The bursting of shells”, he says, “lighted up the country for miles around, and I expect the Germans thought the end of the world had come. We are sending over thousands of shells every day, and for every twenty we fire across the Germans reply with two or three. It is evident the Kaiser intends to fight until he has not a man left, but as for peace, there are no signs of it. Pte. Baker then gives the menu for Christmas Day. They had for breakfast fried bacon and bread and butter; for dinner, roast beef, carrots and potatoes, oranges, apples and chocolate. Afterwards they received 15 packets of woodbines and two packets of tobacco, a shirt and pants, two pairs of socks, handkerchief, gloves and scarves. For tea, they had cake and biscuits and bread and butter.

[Guest Christine Agar]

Hi. I'm trying to carry out some research on my grandfather who served with the 10th (Service) Battlion SWB during the 1st World War. His name is Edward Haigh (Private) and he was gassed (though not seriously) on 25th July 1917 and taken to Mendighem CCS that day but sent straight back. He then was entrained at Rouen on the 12th August 1917 and discharged back to duty on the 13th. I am interested in finding out where he fought at this time (I do know the Battalion was at Pilkem and Langemark at this time, and was wondering if there is any reference in the diary on these dates so I have a better idea of what happened to him (I realise that he probably will not be mentioned by name - only as a casualty figure). I have also been told (perhaps incorrectly) that he was a stretcher bearer - but I've found no evidence of this.

If you could throw some light on this, it would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[kenf48]

Assuming we’re talking about Pte. 40368 Edward Haigh, the Medal Rolls show originally 8650 Bedford Regiment, then to 10th SWB and renumbered 40368.  Then to 1st SWB after a spell at the Infantry Base Depot.  I doubt he saw active service with the Bedford Regiment but was posted to the SWB at the IBD. I think he was either conscripted or enlisted under the Derby Scheme and was posted to the 5th Bedfords around mid-November 1916 and went to France and 4 IBD towards the end of February He was transferred to the SWB no earlier than the 18 February 1917 and was probably in a draft of 49 other ranks who joined the 10th Bn  on the 9th March 1917.

 

I’m guessing you got the details above from Forces War Record MH series.  His service record does not appear to have survived.

 

Therefore we don’t know when he was posted to the 1st Battalion but I would guess it was after he was discharged from hospital either on this occasion, or as a result of a later incident.

 

The 10th Bn war diary shows the Battalion was training and at rest between the 1st and 21st July at Laines and other camps around Hazebrouck.   No casualties were recorded (each day the diarist did a ’nil return’ apart from one accidental wounding).  

 

On the 21st July they moved to Stoke Farm Map sheet 27 F.5.c. where they remained for the next few days.

 

You can obtain the map from this site

http://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

 

or perhaps more user friendly

http://lt1.mcmaster.ca/ww1/wrz4mp.php?grid=27

 

 

On the 23rd July the diary records:-

 

“Battalion at Stoke Farm.  The CO inspected the Battalion at 9 a.m.  Battalion drill followed by training - chiefly extended order drill - occupied the rest of the morning.  A fatigue party of 4 officers and 200 O.R. (other ranks) proceeded to Canal Bank to bury cable.  The party was subjected to considerable gas shelling and the following casualties were incurred 16 O.R. gassed and 7 O.R. wounded - one remaining at duty”.

 

They remained at Stoke Farm until the 30th with no further casualties however there is a note on the entry for the 26th July “Casualties 53 O.R.s who were on fatigue and were slightly gassed on night 23rd/24th were sent to hospital today”.

 

So that was the first incident, and I suspect the only one. I took advantage of the free day on FWR and it looks like he ended up at Boulogne on the 12 August before returned to duty the following day. Though I’m not too familiar with these records so happy to be corrected..

 

The Battalion went into action at Pilckhem Ridge/Iron Cross Ridge on the 1st August and suffered heavy casualties during a fierce fight which lasted until the 3rd August.  They suffered heavy shelling and machine gun fire but the diary makes no mention of gas.  They came out of the line on the 5th and returned to Stoke Farm the following day.

The Roll taken that day showed 22 ORs killed, 159 wounded, 2 missing and 3 died of wounds plus a number of officers killed and wounded.

 

They finally left Stoke Farm on the 16 August, the diary does not mention men returning from hospital during this period.

 

Ken

 

Edited 1 March , 2017 by kenf48

[Paul Bromley]

Hi Gwentpal,

I visited the museum in Brecon on Tuesday this week and found it fascinating. I took with me my maternal grandfathers medals, dog tag and cap badge and Silver War Badge. I have a copy of his record - service number 22190 - which states he entered France 4/12/15 and was discharged 25/3/18.  It is now my intention to donate these to the museum to display in the medal room. However before I do that I want to find out as much about his time in the Great War to put with the medals. On my return home I have found a picture of him in his Lance Corporal uniform and the information on the back says D Company 11 Batt (2 Gwent) SWB. Any information that you have would be great. 

Thanking you in advance

 

Paul Bromley

[clk]

Hi Paul,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

There's a transcript of record for 22190 D Jones which shows that he was admitted to 4 Stationary Hospital in Arques on 15th May 1916 suffering with dental caries, and discharged back to duty on 26th May. At the time he was 11 SWB, attached 19 Pioneer Mining Company, Royal Engineers. He also appears on a (partial) casualty list from the same time, which confirms the same attachment.

 

Regards

Chris

[Paul Bromley]

That was quick. Making a lot of progress. Hoping to write up a small history to attach to the medals and photo when I give them to the museum. Thanks Paul

[kenf48]

He entered France with the main body of the Battalion.

 

The war diary shows that on the 22 March 1916, ' 2/L Carrington and 40 men to 19th Pioneer Batt. permanent mining fatigue'.

 

Have to dig a bit deeper to see when and if, he went back to the 11th Battalion 

 

Ken

[Paul Bromley]

This is all great information. Thanks

[Paul Bromley]

Hi guys. Thanks for previous info. I was wondering if you could see if there is a reason why he was medically discharged in 1917. I have the silver war medal which I will be donating to the museum once I have his full story.

Cheers

 

Paul Bromley

[Guest]

Hi, I'm trying to find any information about my great grandfather's time during the 1st World War. He was in the 11th battalion of the South Wales Borderers and died on 31st July 1917, presumably during the Battle of Pilckem Ridge. Is there anything in the diaries, please? His name was Charles Prout.

[clk]

Hi Katie,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Unfortunately, Charles doesn't appear to have a surviving service papers. However, there are some records that are relevant. His Soldiers Died record says that he was born in Clifton Wood, Bristol, a resident of Risca, who enlisted in Newport. His British War and Victory Medal roll shows that he first served in an active theatre with the 4th Battalion, before serving with the 11th Battalion. (In the records his service number is given as 12489 or 4/12489). His 14/15 Star Medal roll indicates that he first saw 'action' in Gallipoli, and gives a disembarked date of 19th July 1915. The war diary for the 4th Battalion shows that they arrived at Lemnos on 12th July 1915 and at Gallipoli on 15th July, so it seems that Charles followed on a short time later. On the same page of the 14/15 Star roll there are some men with near numbers who (disembarked on the same date as Charles) but were discharged from the service before the end of the war. Looking at two of them (4/)12482 Eskins and (4/)12494 Morgan both have Silver War Badge records which show that they both enlisted on 18th August 1914, so it would seem likely that Charles enlisted at the same time. They both have surviving papers which confirm the enlistment date (at Newport), and say they served at home until 27th June 1916, then transferring to the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force on 28th June 1916. The later date presumably is when they left the UK.

 

What I haven't found is when, and why Charles was transferred to the 11th Bn. My guess would be that he was wounded or fell sick at some point, then following recovery he was posted back to where he was most needed.

 

His Soldiers Effect record gives a date range for his death as from 31st July to 3rd August 1917. 

 

The war diary for the 11th Battalion is here at the National Archives, and here on Ancestry.

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Regards

Chris

[Guest]

Chris, thank you so much for all that and for your extremely prompt reply. I shall share it with my family.  His medal record says that he started the war in the Balkans, so he certainly got around.

 

Katie

[Guest]

Hello,

I have not long since found my Great Uncles details and I am trying to find out where he died. He was Frederick Owen 12066 2bn  SWB died 27/04/1917.

 

Please have you any record of him in the diary?

 

Hadders.