Stoppage Drill Posted 26 November , 2014 Share Posted 26 November , 2014 I have seen - today - a photograph in War Illustrated of mid-1916 purporting to show a soldier in France. He has a P-14. Now, stuff in WI is always very suspect, and it might be that the photo was taken in UK and captioned wrongly. I just clocked the photo in passing, so I will have to plough through the entire volume to find it again, but will have a go and post if I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 26 November , 2014 Share Posted 26 November , 2014 I suspect, as you do, that the picture caption is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 November , 2014 Share Posted 26 November , 2014 (edited) I have seen - today - a photograph in War Illustrated of mid-1916 purporting to show a soldier in France. He has a P-14. Now, stuff in WI is always very suspect, and it might be that the photo was taken in UK and captioned wrongly. I just clocked the photo in passing, so I will have to plough through the entire volume to find it again, but will have a go and post if I can. Which volume is it? 4 or 5 - I have mine out today looking for something else so I'll have a scan too. Chris OK I have now leafed through all of 1916 without finding a picture of a Pattern '14 rifle. I'd be very interested in seeing the image or getting the page reference. Pictures of P14s in France are of great interest to me, even potential ones! Chris Edited 27 November , 2014 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Chris - I am sorry my mistake, having found the photo it shows a Long Lee not a P14. The photo is in Vol 4 p367 bottom right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Ah...Thanks - yes I saw that picture and wondered. It is interesting that there are still quite a number of pictures of CLLEs in the 1916 volume (early 1916 is when most units on the Western Front who were still equipped with them turned them in) While CLLEs are common in 1915 pictures they virtually disappear from images of the Western Front after April/May 1916. It was an interesting exercise to go through the volume looking specifically at rifles - found some interesting ones - including a picture of a cadet guard at Holyrood who all appear to be armed with Martinis. Perhaps a project for the long winter evenings to go through the set and catalogue the various rifles! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 November , 2014 Share Posted 30 November , 2014 The logical answer would be either. 1. The rifles are Long Lees or 2. A batch of P14s sent for evaluation behind the lines. The photo to does not clearly identify the rifles as P14's to my eye though the fore sight 'ears' look larger than those on my 1901 Long Lee. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 30 November , 2014 Share Posted 30 November , 2014 John, As Stoppage Drill says above (post 29) it is clearly a "Long Lee" Actually it is a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield, the foresight protectors are diagnostic (but you can also see the charger bridge just below the soldiers elbow, this area also shows the volley sight peep and the safety and quite different shape than a Pattern 14 where ears protect the receiver mounted rear sight, again the photo shows a barrel mounted rear sight.) The CLLE, unlike the earlier MLE had a "driftable" foresight and therefore it could be knocked out of zero - necessitating the protectors, these were not needed on the MLE because the foresight was solid and not subject to movement. As the picture was published in June 1916 even trial rifles would barely have had time to make it to the front as by mid June only about 15,000 Pattern 14s had been accepted by British inspectors (combined from all 3 manufacturers) What is interesting about the picture is it shows a CLLE and a Brodie helmet.. the former being phased out of the front line in early 1916 with the latter being introduced in the same period. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 November , 2014 Share Posted 30 November , 2014 Thanks Chris. I tried to compare it to my MLE forgetting there were changes between that and the CCLE. Could the photo be at somewhere like Etaples where CCLE's might still lurk for musketry training before the issue of a SMLE and the soldier going to the front? Will put my head below the parapet! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger cleverly Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 I'm attaching a copy of the Fine Tune Rearsight diagram from the appendix to Hesketh-Prichard's Sniping in France covering the issue of three P'14s so equipped per battalion for sniping prior to the delayed issue of the 1918 scoped version just before the Armistice (I have the complete appendix on file if needed). The scoped version also had this rearsight. I've long suspected that post-war Rifles No4 & 5 marked FTR, generally interpreted as Factory Through Reconditioned, actually indicate use of Fine Tune Rearsights clearly derived from the P'14 type and fitted retrospectively to many Nos 4 originally with flip-over battlesights. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 I've long suspected that post-war Rifles No4 & 5 marked FTR, generally interpreted as Factory Through Reconditioned, actually indicate use of Fine Tune Rearsights clearly derived from the P'14 type and fitted retrospectively to many Nos 4 originally with flip-over battlesights. RC Hogwash!! the Mk1 backsight was the 1st choice backsight on the No4 but was slow to manufacture & held up production & the "flip-over" or as its called the MkII was a expedient to speed up production with the Mk1 sight being fitted when available, the No5 never had the "flip-over" sight fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger cleverly Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 Does FTR appear in List of Changes as Factory Through Reconditioned? It sounds an unlikely one to me - R for reconditioned, perhaps FR for Factory Reconditioned but I find the 'through' difficult to swallow - I think somebody has jumped to a conclusion which, repeated often enough, has become accepted as fact. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 Mate, i have nothing to prove, the FTR is well know & documented, it appears on thousends of weapons that do not have fine adjustment rear sights, if you want to try & rewrite thousends of books & correct hundreds of experts then it is you who needs to provide proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 Does FTR appear in List of Changes as Factory Through Reconditioned? It sounds an unlikely one to me - R for reconditioned, perhaps FR for Factory Reconditioned but I find the 'through' difficult to swallow - I think somebody has jumped to a conclusion which, repeated often enough, has become accepted as fact. RC FTR = Factory Thorough Reconditioned ... (you need to add that extra letter "o" to make more sense). Always has been, always will be.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 Have heard FTR called Factory Through Reconditioned & Factory Through Repair. Which is correct? Must check Skennerton/Richards next time I am home. Nice to see you back S/S, have a few bayonets going spare in for sale section that might interest you Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 4 December , 2014 Share Posted 4 December , 2014 Have heard FTR called Factory Through Reconditioned & Factory Through Repair. Which is correct? Must check Skennerton/Richards next time I am home. Aleck, Skennerton's " The Lee-Enfield " reference book, page 599 ' Abbreviations ', lists ' FTR ' as ' Factory Thorough Repair '. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 4 December , 2014 Share Posted 4 December , 2014 Must check Skennerton/Richards next time I am home. Aleck, As an aside, in Skennerton & Richardson's " British Commonwealth Bayonets " reference book, page 348, there is a reference to ........" In most cases, later modifications, F.R.'s ( Factory Repairs ) or even " .......................... Also on page 352 ............ " Many of the British No.5 rifles were forwarded to India, along with their bayonets, and most of these rifles were later " re-manufactured " at Ishapore during F.R. programmes. So in both these reference books, ' FTR ' for Factory Thorough Repair or ' FR ' for Factory Repairs, the ' R ' portion of those abbreviations relates to ' Repair ' or ' Repairs '. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 4 December , 2014 Share Posted 4 December , 2014 I guess the only word in contention, is 'thorough', it seems an odd choice, but probably indicates to an armorer an identifiable level of repair, perhaps a total rebuild in every respect? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 6 December , 2014 Share Posted 6 December , 2014 A Factory Thorough Repair (The term used on my Cadet Armourers course in 1963, and ever since, so it's probably the correct one.) is essentially a rebuild of the rifle, replacing or reconditioning parts as required. (That last phrase is a quote from some manual or document IIRC.) BTW, Fine Tune Rearsght for FTR is new one on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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