303man Posted 18 June , 2014 Share Posted 18 June , 2014 I have had someone contact me saying their Great Grandad (Pals Bn) had a P14 rifle on the Somme. They say have a photo of him with it. I have never heard of them being used on the Somme anyone know if they were? I will try and get a copy of said picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 June , 2014 Share Posted 18 June , 2014 Maybe his G /Grandfather was a sniper as I believe some P14's were used as sniper rifles. I would like to see the photo if possible. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 18 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2014 Maybe his Grandfather was a sniper as I believe some P14's were used as sniper rifles. I would like to see the photo if possible. khaki According to Skennerton not until 1917 for the P14 sniper varient . I will contact the person for more detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 June , 2014 Share Posted 18 June , 2014 Not all snipers used scoped 'variant' rifles due to lack of scopes etc, some were perhaps better described as marksmen, simply put, soldiers who had shooting skills and may have been given more accurate rifles. I will have to do some research to support this. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 June , 2014 Share Posted 18 June , 2014 (edited) I will be very interested to see how this turns out. My understanding is that very very few Pattern 14s made it to France beyond those for evaluation and the late war sniper variants (telescopic (T) and the Mk1*W (F) which had a finer adjustment on the rear sight). It is possible the (F)ine rifles made it there earlier than the (T) I would be surprised if P14s had made it to front line use on the Somme in July 1916 if that is the period you are referring to. TonyE may be able to help with delivery dates, its my understanding that deliveries were substantially delayed so large numbers of rifles had not been delivered at that point. I do not believe I have ever seen a photo of Pattern 14 on active service on the Western Front (although I have some training pictures and post war pictures in the Baltic states and WWII pictures of Home Guard / LDV with them) Very interested in this! Chris Edit: thinking more I BELIEVE I am correct in saying that production did not begin until Jan 1916 and there were still big production/interchangeability issues as late as June 1916 which was when the 3 model distinction MkI (E) MkI ® and MkI(W) were approved and it was not until Dec (?) 1916 that the * modification (lengthened bolt lugs) was approved. So anything other than tiny usage in Summer 1916 seems improbable. But........ Edited 18 June , 2014 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 June , 2014 Share Posted 18 June , 2014 Here is a picture of Pattern 14 rifles (and SMLEs) in use by what I believe to be a training unit in the UK (post Somme I suspect given the presence of Brodies) Apologies for the obnoxious watermark but as I have (again) just found several of my images from the forum for sale as reprints or reused without credit in a for-profit context I am more concerned about this than usual!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 June , 2014 Share Posted 19 June , 2014 Chris is quite right about the production dates. It is highly unlikely that even any evaluation P.'14 rifles reached the western front in time for the start of the battle of the Somme in July 1916. Of course, fighting went on on the Somme throughout the war so he may have been talking about 1917/18 when it is POSSIBLE some Winchester sniper variants with the (F) rear sight were available. I too would love to see some photographic evidence of this. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 June , 2014 Share Posted 19 June , 2014 Or possibly the 2nd Battle of the Somme? 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 19 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2014 They have sent me a picture of the said rifle now deactivated, It is a P14 but has Target Sights fitted, I am now waiting the picture they say is of the soldier that kept the rifle, aparently the picture is in the Leeds Pals Book with him supposidly holding the rifle. (I am very dubious at present) and fear it will be a handed down family myth thay may now get shot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 June , 2014 Share Posted 19 June , 2014 Chris is quite right about the production dates. It is highly unlikely that even any evaluation P.'14 rifles reached the western front in time for the start of the battle of the Somme in July 1916. Of course, fighting went on on the Somme throughout the war so he may have been talking about 1917/18 when it is POSSIBLE some Winchester sniper variants with the (F) rear sight were available. I too would love to see some photographic evidence of this. Regards TonyE With the German withdrawal to the Hindenburg line fighting on the Somme effectively ceased until the 1918 March offensive (2nd Battle of the Somme) so 1917 is effectively ruled out. Interestingly there were some British troops on the Somme in 1940 when the Germans advanced across the area again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 20 June , 2014 Share Posted 20 June , 2014 They have sent me a picture of the said rifle now deactivated, It is a P14 but has Target Sights fitted, I am now waiting the picture they say is of the soldier that kept the rifle, aparently the picture is in the Leeds Pals Book with him supposidly holding the rifle. (I am very dubious at present) and fear it will be a handed down family myth thay may now get shot down. I am afraid that the story is getting less believable. The British Government did not allow soldiers to take their rifles home after the War. On the contrary, the Government concerned about effect of the Russian Revolution and a country suddenly awash with ex-soldiers trained to use firearms, they enacted the UK's first Firearms Act (1920) so as to disarm the general population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 20 June , 2014 Share Posted 20 June , 2014 I am afraid that the story is getting less believable. The British Government did not allow soldiers to take their rifles home after the War. On the contrary, the Government concerned about effect of the Russian Revolution and a country suddenly awash with ex-soldiers trained to use firearms, they enacted the UK's first Firearms Act (1920) so as to disarm the general population. But some did manage to take someone-else's - plenty of abandoned, owner deceased etc weapons around at the end of the war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 22 June , 2014 Share Posted 22 June , 2014 But some did manage to take someone-else's - plenty of abandoned, owner deceased etc weapons around at the end of the war Of course that happened. Look at how many "captured" Lugers still turn up. . Unlike one's issued rifle, enemy weapons were less easy to trace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 22 June , 2014 Share Posted 22 June , 2014 Perhaps the promised picture will be of a veteran of the Leeds Pals carrying a P14 in WW2 as a member of the Home Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 22 June , 2014 Share Posted 22 June , 2014 Perhaps the promised picture will be of a veteran of the Leeds Pals carrying a P14 in WW2 as a member of the Home Guard. Good suggestion, and probably correct . Possibly a P17 though. P14's with target sights were commonly used by civvies in NRA competitions in the UK but as target rifle shooting has declined, some have come on to the market as deacts. I bet the one mentioned will have disposal marks and civilian proof with a PH rearsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sierra49er Posted 25 June , 2014 Share Posted 25 June , 2014 It seems that the P14 Sniper has 1918 stamped on the scope. I guess that clarifies the fact that these particular sniper models saw action later. BTW, anyone able to track a specific rifle such as a P14 sniper w/BSA scope down to the regiment or unit it was assigned or even a person who may have used it? Just curious. Thank you for allowing me to barge in on this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Gentlemen... if I may add another avenue of thought here! After studying the photograph which Chris has posted, I think there may be a chance to identify the unit concerned. The complete absence of any unit identification is a tad frustrating. However, there are two individuals wearing trench caps. The badges upon the caps are being worn Canadian style. Would it not be a help to identify the unit with a possible view to a time period location? It at least would indicate what weapons were used, and the reason as to why most of this group have pre '08' leather fighting equipment, and P-14 rifles. Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Gentlemen... if I may add another avenue of thought here! After studying the photograph which Chris has posted, I think there may be a chance to identify the unit concerned. The complete absence of any unit identification is a tad frustrating. However, there are two individuals wearing trench caps. The badges upon the caps are being worn Canadian style. Would it not be a help to identify the unit with a possible view to a time period location? It at least would indicate what weapons were used, and the reason as to why most of this group have pre '08' leather fighting equipment, and P-14 rifles. Seph. Seph I am not sure quite what you mena by "Canadian style" but here are two close ups.... I believe we went down this path before and the balance of opinion was they are Fusiliers of some, sort but fresh eyes may help! Regarding the equipment - I believe most of the men are wearing Wartime Pattern 14 leather equipment rather than anything (slade-wallace etc) that pre-dates the 08 web. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Ayup Chris, The cap badges are of the 'Royal Fusiliers'. What I meant by 'Canadian Style', is that they are being worn high over the seam, and looked to be above the band. Is the battalion known? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Ayup Chris, The cap badges are of the 'Royal Fusiliers'. What I meant by 'Canadian Style', is that they are being worn high over the seam, and looked to be above the band. Is the battalion known? Welcome Back Seph! Not by me! -- its a UK produced card, so I would assume perhaps one of the feeder/second line/training battalions (as most of the Service Battalions seem to have gone to France prior to July 1916) but no, I don't know which.... IIRC they had all sorts of Reserve,Extra Reserve, Graduated and "Young Soldier" battalions affiliated with the Royal Fusilers. Cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Welcome Back Seph! Thanks Chris... its been awhile! In regards to the purpose of this thread. I've not seen many period pics of P-14's being used in the front-lines, but they were there late on. I've read several references of them being used as sniper rifles... as I presume that many others have. Its extremely hard though to track down a single reference. I have seen a few pics of snipers wearing gilly suits... holding P-14s. Not sure if these were just training shots though. Now I'm back, I'll start going through the books.... let the moths out for a spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Welcome Back Seph! Not by me! -- its a UK produced card, so I would assume perhaps one of the feeder/second line/training battalions (as most of the Service Battalions seem to have gone to France prior to July 1916) but no, I don't know which.... IIRC they had all sorts of Reserve,Extra Reserve, Graduated and "Young Soldier" battalions affiliated with the Royal Fusilers. Cheers, Chris Am I seeing some rifles buttons on a couple of the men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 September , 2014 Share Posted 6 September , 2014 Am I seeing some rifles buttons on a couple of the men? Non brass certainly but I was interpreting them as substitute standard vegetable/leather rather than blackened/horn rifle buttons.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 7 September , 2014 Share Posted 7 September , 2014 Non brass certainly but I was interpreting them as substitute standard vegetable/leather rather than blackened/horn rifle buttons.... button1.jpg button2.jpg Agreed - with the zoom, there's no sign whatever of the strung hunting horn. Very useful pictures. When resolution is good, you can usually make out the rough curve and bell of the hunting horn as on this RB rifleman ... ... but sometimes the pattern is still hard to make out - as on the top few buttons of this KRR rifleman on the left (zoomed in on the right) ... Notice also the rifleman on the lower right here wearing General Service brass buttons. Mental note to self: include a link to these two posts in future discussions of blackened rifles buttons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger cleverly Posted 26 November , 2014 Share Posted 26 November , 2014 ref: sierra49er's comment on BSA marked 1918 pattern scope sight. These was manufactured under contract for the Irish Free State between the wars. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now