Webley dum-dum bullets?

[yperman]

I read recently in Sussex Past and Present an article by Ed and Biddy Jarzembowski on a newly located firing range near Newhaven. The authors state that the flat tops of the Webley rounds found there were an attempt by the British to evade the restrictions on the use of dum-dum bullets laid down by the Hague Convention of 1899. They went on that in 1914 British soldiers 'retreating from Belgium' jettisoned such bullets prior to capture to avoid German reprisals and to prevent their use as propaganda.

Is this article correct?

Yperman

[4thGordons]

This might be relevant. (post 124)

Chris

[yperman]

Thank you for the link. Tony E's point that "flat top" Webley rounds were only used for training would tie in with their being found on a Great War era training range. It also deals with the points of the article - such rounds were not used in France, were seen as contravening the convention and by extension that British soldiers did not jettison Webley rounds prior to capture for fear of reprisal.

Thank you very much,

Yperman

[Khaki]

Flat top rounds or 'wad cutters' I am familiar with, are used as target rounds against paper targets as they punch a nice clean round hole easily visible from a distance as opposed to pointed or rounded bullets that close after entry.

khaki

[Scalyback]

I thought "slugs" was the flat head round for targets as pointed out above, indeed you can buy air rilfe pellets with rounded or flat heads. Dum-dum has a nick into the head to allow the seperation on impact? A small change that makes a big impact? No expert in ammo, i just fired the things!

[Beerhunter]

In summary, the Mk.IV was a failed attempt to produce a round with the "stopping power" of the hollow-point Mk.III that did not contravene the Hague Convention.

I use the almost identical target "Naval Bullet" in my .455s.

[centurion]

I thought "slugs" was the flat head round for targets as pointed out above, indeed you can buy air rilfe pellets with rounded or flat heads. Dum-dum has a nick into the head to allow the seperation on impact? A small change that makes a big impact? No expert in ammo, i just fired the things!

Not so much to separate as to mushroom. Soldiers on both sides in the AWI were cutting crosses in their musket balls for much the same reason and there is some irate correspondence between Washington and Cornwallis on the subject

[Scalyback]

Thank you Mr C nasty nasty things in any situation.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not Webley, ( Edit ) and not British .303 ' Dum Dums ' but rather French 8mm Lebel "Balle D" Dum Dum rounds, which the German propaganda post card accuses the French of using.

Thanks to Chris and Tony for the French information.

LF

[Scalyback]

Only round four looks a bit iffy! Anti armour round?

[4thGordons]

Not Webley, but .303 ' Dum Dum ' rounds supposedly discovered by the Germans, and used for propaganda purposes.

LF

I can't read the headstamps but they look more like 8mm Lebel rounds to me given the shaping of the case it also looks like the packaging on the wrapped rounds appears to be in French.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I can't read the headstamps but they look more like 8mm Lebel rounds to me given the shaping of the case it also looks like the packaging on the wrapped rounds appears to be in French.

Chris

Chris,

As the packaging is in French, then as you say, this is probably the Germans complaining about the French using ' Dum Dums '.

I have no idea as to what the German caption is saying ? I was interested more in the Germans using the words ' Dum Dum ', and I would like to know if anyone knows the origins of the term ?

Regards,

LF

[centurion]

Chris,

As the packaging is in French, then as you say, this is probably the Germans complaining about the French using ' Dum Dums '.

I have no idea as to what the German caption is saying ? I was interested more in the Germans using the words ' Dum Dum ', and I would like to know if anyone knows the origins of the term ?

Regards,

LF

A dum dum only works if the bullet is a jacketed lead bullet such as Britain and Germany used. France used a solid one piece bullet and what ever you did to the pointed end you might well achieve a distorted flight but you would not get a dum dum effect

[Gareth Davies]

Chris,

As the packaging is in French, then as you say, this is probably the Germans complaining about the French using ' Dum Dums '.

I have no idea as to what the German caption is saying ? I was interested more in the Germans using the words ' Dum Dum ', and I would like to know if anyone knows the origins of the term ?

Regards,

LF

From the Dum Dum arsenal in India apparently.

[centurion]

From the Dum Dum arsenal in India apparently.

Who continued to manufacture perfectly legal rounds for many years afterwards but the association with the name (printed on ammunition boxes etc) was a gift to propagandists

[Gareth Davies]

A dum dum only works if the bullet is a jacketed lead bullet such as Britain and Germany used. France used a solid one piece bullet and what ever you did to the pointed end you might well achieve a distorted flight but you would not get a dum dum effect

I don't understand this Cent. Would you please elaborate.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

From the Dum Dum arsenal in India apparently.

Gareth,

Many thanks for the origin of the word, which is said to date back to the late 1800s, when the British used the special bullets made at ' Dum Dum ' India against the hoards of charging tribesmen.

Regards,

LF

[TonyE]

That is a well known German propaganda postcard depicting French 8mm Lebel "Balle D" rounds.

As Centurion correctly points out, these bullets were swaged from solid bronze rod and so were homologous, such that no amount of tampering with the tip would make them expand. All that would happen is that the aerodynamics of the bullet would be disturbed leading to erratic flight.

All other nations made bullets which had a lead core enclosed in an envelope or jacket of cupro-nickel or steel clad with cupro-nickel. Cutting the tips from these was believed to create expanding bullets. In reality it made them dangerous to shoot as explained in my post #122 here. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142407&page=5

The true Dum Dum was made at the eponymous arsenal in India and was officially the Cartridge S.A. .303 inch Ball mark II Special. It had a very small exposed lead tip and although tested in the UK was never issued here.

Regards

TonyE

[Gareth Davies]

Ta.

[Stoppage Drill]

Thank you Mr C nasty nasty things in any situation.

Not any, Scaly. Expanding rounds are normally used in animal control, and it is considered humane to do so.

The British 1991 Deer Act specifies that expanding ammunition must be used. It is an offence to shoot deer in UK with ammunition which does not expand.

[EastSurrey]

When interviewed, near the end of his life, by Peter Liddle, Major General Lechmere Thomas referred to being wounded in March 1918 and that his stretcher bearers 'had already taken my revolver and ammunition because they said the Germans would probably bayonet one if they found that on one because they didn't like these lead bullets we had in the old revolver.'(Quoted in Lucas 'The Journey's End Battalion '.p.126.)

Michael

[centurion]

"Old revolver" might imply that he wasn't carrying the latest regulation army issue revolver but some personal firearm that used unjacketed rounds ( an Enfield perhaps?)

[MikB]

"Old revolver" might imply that he wasn't carrying the latest regulation army issue revolver but some personal firearm that used unjacketed rounds ( an Enfield perhaps?)

Doubt it, old chap - think he just used 'old' as a term of familiarity.

Or he could have been referring to the revolver as 'old' compared to whatever was standard issue at the time of the interview, which may have occurred during the service life of the Enfield No.2 with jacketed .38 ball.

There were no Enfield revolvers in common use in WW1 unless anyone had the deservedly-obsolete .476, which would generally have been 'non-preferred', and standard-issue .455 revolver rounds were Mk.II plain lead - the jacketed Mk.VI ball was introduced later.

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

Doubt it, old chap - think he just used 'old' as a term of familiarity.

Or he could have been referring to the revolver as 'old' compared to whatever was standard issue at the time of the interview, which may have occurred during the service life of the Enfield No.2 with jacketed .38 ball.

There were no Enfield revolvers in common use in WW1 unless anyone had the deservedly-obsolete .476, which would generally have been 'non-preferred', and standard-issue .455 revolver rounds were Mk.II plain lead - the jacketed Mk.VI ball was introduced later.

Regards,

MikB

Doesn't make sense as it would imply that the Germans were bayoneting every captured officer because they carried a Webley which is obviously nonsense.

[MikB]

Doesn't make sense as it would imply that the Germans were bayoneting every captured officer because they carried a Webley which is obviously nonsense.

The stretcher bearers may have been misinformed, the Major General may have misremembered, or the local German units may have been behaving with unusual severity; but nevertheless every officer captured with .455 revolver ammunition would have been carrying unjacketed lead rounds.

There weren't nowt else.

Regards,

MikB