markus Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Hello all. Just wondered if anyone has any info relating to the style of liners inserted in British 1916 pattern tank helmets ? Any photos, links, publications or diagrams detailing such would be greatly appreciated. I'm currently bashing together a copy to be displayed along with my original splatter mask, hopefully to be ready for a forthcoming exhibition in Barnham village church (Norfolk - Suffolk border). With it in mind that Barnham is a neighbouring parish to Elveden, one of the original WW1 proving-grounds for the 'monsters', it seemed to be befitting to produce a repro, just to give folk an idea of what the things looked like. But short of getting down on hands and knees in front of the display case in Lambeth IWM, and hoping to obtain a clear view of the fore-mentioned liner, I cannot find a picture or diagram anywhere. Could somebody help out, please ? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 29 May , 2014 Share Posted 29 May , 2014 Hello, Your project sounds interesting and very challenging. I have a couple of pictures (below) of the interior of the helmet: It would be nice to see some pictures of your project when it's finished. Good luck with it! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus Posted 30 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2014 Hi Mark. Thanks loads for the pictures, they're exactly the sort of shots I was hoping for, 100% excellent stuff. Now I can progress... at last ! As you're interested and indeed, have been so instrumental in helping me out, I shall most certainly get back to you with the results. It would be a very great pleasure to add a few photos when the project is finished. All the best for now. Warmest regards, Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 30 May , 2014 Share Posted 30 May , 2014 Hi Markus, Glad I could be of some help. I have always wanted one of these leather tank helmets, but have never seen an original for sale. It looks a complicated shape to recreate. Are you following a pattern? Is it difficult to get the right kind of leather and rivets? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus Posted 30 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2014 Hi Mark. Finding an original 'tankies' helmet up for sale... the stuff dreams are made of, eh ? I've collected odds and ends dating from WW1 since I was ten, forty years plus of collecting and I've never, ever seen one. When I saw your photos 'I wonder who owns them' was amongst my first thoughts. Undoubtedly one of the rarest items from the war, no doubt. Dare say there's an example or two over there in the States, Aberdeen proving ground or such like, just as there is in the IWM over here. But I've never seen one in private hands. Having said that I'll probably be inundated with replies proving me resolutely wrong. Anyway, as far as construction goes. It's a case of choosing a decent hide somewhere around 3mm to 4mm thickness, obtaining 70 bifurcated copper rivets (11mm length - 3mm diameter shank are my choice) with copper washers and a softer grade leather for the liner (which I can now positively say, thanks to your feedback with the photos) and away you go. The construction templates that I've made have been from both card and rubber, two different experiments, just to get an idea of forming the panels. However, now I have the correct hide I'm fiddling with a prototype and obviously finding it much easier to work with and mould, wetted of course. The hide was initially a problem, so many grades and grains depending on the size and age of the animal (I'm no professional leather worker so it's all been a big learning curve for me), but eventually I tracked the perfect one down (enough to make 15 helmets !!!), russet colour and vegetable dyed, as opposed to chemical. I would say that in the States you'd find it much easier to track down the correct grade of hide. I know from my visits over there that access to leather and tanning hasn't died out in the same way as it has here in the UK, although the finish of a good English leather is still the best in the world ! Hope to have my first attempt completed fairly soon and I'll get back to you with the results. Warmest regards, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 Hello Mark, Enough to make 15 helmets . . . eh? It sounds like you've done a tremendous amount of work to obtain the correct materials and create templates. Your helmet should look really authentic and be the next best thing to owning an original! These helmets seem to be a bit of a mystery as there doesn't appear to be much information on them, as in which companies made them and how many factories were producing them. Regarding the photos, the first one is from Military Illustrated magazine and the second photo is from a book to do with WWI helmets. All the best, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 I have the inner liner of one that has an MGC badge afixed that came with a lot of HMGC and tank flashes & buttons strpped from a uniform, presumably the leather was removed - maybe a bit bulky in close quarters? A horsey friend of mine saw it and remarked that it looked like a cork shell for a dressage riding helmet. Perhaps these were originally adapted for the tank crash helmets? I'll post some pictures and see what you think - I have no idea if it is genuine or not to the 17-18 era, but I'd like to think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 Here goes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 Part 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 31 May , 2014 Share Posted 31 May , 2014 I know someone making reproduction tank crew helmets (and masks) to an extremely high quality if his details would be of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus Posted 1 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2014 Hello all. @Rif Brig. Yep, hopefully there'll be enough hide to complete somewhere around 15 or thereabouts. Once I've got the production formula properly worked out I'll send you a message, if you'd like one then we can work something out. I very much appreciate the feedback you've given me re the photos so it would be a pleasure to at least offer you one. Not really into it all for profit so wouldn't be asking too much. Anyway, thanks again for helping out. @ScottM. Thank you also for posting the photos, it's certainly an unusual helmet. Does appear to be somewhat different to the model of helmet depicted in Rif Brig's photos. If you check Rif's photos the underside of the leather shell is visible through the supports of the liner, I can see a row of the rivets which secure the outer panels. Looks like you've got a very different model of helmet there, certainly an interesting item, but something different to the 'classic' tank helmets I've seen. Must say I agree with your friend's comments regarding the helmet's similarities to dressage lids and Christy's have been producing headwear since 1773, so they were undoubtedly producing stuff during WW1. Maybe it's simply a case of being a private purchase item used/adopted by a tankie, rather than wearing the more Teutonic looking 'standard' leather version. the Does the IWM have possession such a model ? If it's OK with you I'll take the liberty of contacting Christy's hat Company and forward your pictures to them ? Would be interesting to know what they have to say in relation to the subject. @RobL. Hi there, good to hear from you and thanks for the offer. Yes, indeed, would very much like to glean as much info as possible, someone already versed and experienced in the making of these lids would be of great interest, thank you. All the best to all of you. Warmest regards, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 1 June , 2014 Share Posted 1 June , 2014 This picture might help - two crewmen from D20 Daphne in September 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 1 June , 2014 Share Posted 1 June , 2014 Hi Mark, go for it. I think, if you look closely at the first helmets they seem to me to be a 2 part construction, the outer leather section looks pressed onto the cork liner and not mechanically fixed - the strap looks like it fixes to the outer leather shell. I think my shell was seperated from the outer leather padding at some point. Just my thoughts. The interior suspension arrangement strap in the first picture looks very close to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 1 June , 2014 Share Posted 1 June , 2014 Here are some pictures I found online: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 1 June , 2014 Share Posted 1 June , 2014 And here are some more: All the best, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus Posted 1 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2014 Hi again Thanks to all of you for helping me out, great stuff ! I'm really chuffed ! Warmest regards to all, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimal Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Mark I can across your question, so joined the forum to hopefully help. I took the following pictures of an original helmet that i have. This is a genuine one as it belonged to grandfather. The previous comments are all accurate, though I don't believe there was an inner helmet to it. The leather is treated on the outside and is @ 3mm thick. The inner liner is a softer untreated leather that is double backed on itself. It is attached to the outer leather with double cork spacers. For authenticity, you will see on the original, on the back right of the helmet (outside), they would stamp the company (mine reads A HS MGC, representing A company, Heavy Section, Machine Gun Corps). I hope this helps happy to take further pictures as required if it assists in the details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 July , 2014 Share Posted 15 July , 2014 Welcome! And certainly a very interesting piece there! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rif Brig. Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 Hello Minimal, Welcome! Great looking helmet and quite a prize to own. It's neat to know that it has been stamped with the markings of "A company HS MGC" into the leather. I noticed in one of your pictures that the inner upper leather band that joins the liner has some writing. I can see a letter "P" or "R". Is this your grandfathers name or a maker's mark? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimal Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 Mark The letter is not a makers mark unfortunately but the first of his initials which were written onto the helmet. But given the earlier question about maker I will have a good look to see if there are any other marks, though I can never recall having seen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 Mark Welcome to the Forum. If you provide me with your grandfather's deatils, I will add his name to my ccmmemorative website http://www.firsttankcrews.com/acompany.htm Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimal Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 Stephen I think we corresponded on your first tank website a couple of years ago, and you did a little research on him for me. I also shared a poor copy (due to faded original) of the original Christmas menu from 1918 signed by all the officers present. Finally if it is of interest I have a set of newspaper cuttings from the 50's (i think) which also have pictures of a big renunion dinner - with many of the officers who were there from the establishment of the corps. though it is difficult to link the list of names to the attendees faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks3 Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 Minimal Could you share the details of your grandfather and his service with the rest of us by posting here? I would be interested to read about him. Do you have a photo of him? Tanks3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 16 July , 2014 Share Posted 16 July , 2014 If I have it right, he is Cpl Alfred Taffs of A Coy who fought in "We're all in it" http://www.firsttankcrews.com/acompany.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimal Posted 17 July , 2014 Share Posted 17 July , 2014 Per the question / request from Tank3 and Stephen, and apologies for appending to Mark's original thread.The individual was Robert McKinnon, born, Nov, 1891, a brief history: Was initially in the 8th Battalion, The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). At start of war was required to guard UK installations Shortly thereafter was sent to Gallipoli, where he suffered a number of wounds and was evacuated back to the UK via Malta Unable to rejoin an infantry regiment due to wounds, he joined the A Company, HMGC. Commissioned as a 2nd Lt June 1916. Served the remainder of war with the Tanks (hence helmet and other items) - unfortunately all the photo's he took of the battles were destroyed. Continued as an active participant after war, chairing various Scottish Tank and other veterans association. Attached a couple of items you may find of interest - might be over a couple of responses due to size Picture of R McKinnon Xmas menu from 1918 Reunion - date unknown A small book that I have not found elsewhere - published in 1917 - with a lewis gun in France and Selonika. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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