10th Batt South Wales Borderers

[Michelle Young]

Any replies please on this thread to avoid repetition of information.

Michelle 

[Guest]

Hi, 

Just wondering if anyone can help me. 

Thank you all for such interesting posts and info. 

I am trying to establish the last days of my Great Grandfathers life. He died 8th October 1918 from his wounds and is buried at Tincourt, France.  In reading some of the Posts and others ancesters diaries, I am starting to put together a picture, but do not know much else.

His name was LLJ Roe and his service number was 40379.

Regards

Guy 

Private L L J Roe - CWGC Certificate.pdf

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Guy said:

His name was LLJ Roe and his service number was 40379.

Hello Guy,

Welcome to GWF.

Leonard L J ROE = Because he died it is possible to find a number of Pension Index Cards at the Western Front Association / Fold3 for the claim made by his widow, Jessie on 6.12.18

We can see she was born 30.10.1898 [important as she would expect get a pension uplift once she reached 45]

Her address was 8 Roberts Road, Watford and later 76 St John's Wood Terrace, St John's Wood NW 8 [you can also see this later address on CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/256274/L L J ROE ]

She also made a claim for children's allowances for:

Walter ????? J. = b. 1.4.16 [allowance would normally be paid to her up to him reaching 16]  - GRO appear to have this likely entry for him: ROE, WALTER  LEONARD JAMES     Mother's Maiden Surname: TOMPKINS  GRO Reference: 1916  J Quarter in WATFORD  Volume 03A  Page 1657

Katherine [?] Elsie = b 8.11.18 [transcribed as Kathleen - allowance would normally be paid to her up to her reaching 16] - GRO appear to have this likely entry for her:  ROE, KATHLEEN  ELSIE      Mother's Maiden Surname: TOMPKINS  GRO Reference: 1918  D Quarter in WATFORD  Volume 03A  Page 1148

Initially she got a combined amount of 25/5 a week from 2.6.19 [typically from c. 6 months after his death - normal Separation Allowance would be paid in the interim]

She would have made a claim for a standard widow's Pension and appears to have probably later made an application for a Alternative Pension [hoping for a higher quantum but this was expected to be proved by pre-war earnings] - card is marked Not eligible for A P [she may not have been able to prove pre-war earning or the alternative was not higher than the standard one anyway - can't tell - main file will be long gone/deliberately destroyed once its use had passed]

She got a £6 grant plus additional £1 for funeral expenses for herself and children [£5 + £1 + £1, typically for mourning clothes, newspaper obituary, etc.]

The National Archives have the War Diary for the 10th SWB https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354169 currently free to download after a free registration - it is unlikely to mention him by name but you will get the general situation thereabouts his death.

:-) M

Edit:  His MIC also free from the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4926944 [also avail able in colour from a free basic Ancestry subscription] shows no date of entry to a theatre of war, nor ToW and a British War Medal and a Victory Medal - this means he did not go overseas until after 31/12/1915.

The associated Medal Roll shows his full name as Leonard Lewis James ROE - The MR also shows an earlier regimental number of 8634 Bedf.[ordshire] Regt [seemingly likely to have been the one he enlisted into] but because it is not on his MIC would normally suggest he is likely to have gone overseas with the SWB, or at least his main o/s service was with 10 SWB.  The other near entries on the same MR also all show Bedf. Regt and then 10 SWB [so looks like a mass draft from the BR into 10 SWB - not that uncommon for drafts to get diverted to a unit in need - such a draft may perhaps show arriving in the 10 SWB WD - Other GWF members may be able to perhaps date his SWB number and that might assist in matching to the WD - perhaps!]

From the Register of Soldier's Effects we can again see his full name - His widow, Jessie, got payments of £6 1s 2d [31.3.19] and £12 2s 6d [17.5.19] plus a War Gratuity of £10 10s [other members, perhaps @ss002d6252, may well be able to translate the WG into an approximate date of enlistment]

From Soldiers Died in the Great War we can see he enlisted in Bedford - and Formerly 8634, Bedford Regt

Such other documents can be seen via a paid subscription to Ancestry [or perhaps free through a local library's subscription to Ancestry]

Edited 22 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

Returning to the original OP request = 10 SWB 

L-Cpl. J W C BAGSHAW, 48026 [formerly with 1 SWB] was very briefly posted to 10 SWB in April 1919 - a whole 14 days! - before quickly posting on to Home Records, Shrewsbury

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Got him a couple of extra stripes though!

:-) M

Edited 22 July , 2021 by Matlock1418
corrn

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Guy said:

His name was LLJ Roe and his service number was 40379.

The service record of 40378 Horace Pitts has survived, as the Army did things alphabetically he was probably standing next to Pte Roe when the numbers were allocated.

Pte Pitts was a conscript, deemed to have enlisted on the 24th June 1916 and called up for service on the 6 October 1916, apparently having received a temporary exemption from the Local Tribunal.  The gratuity paid to Pte Roe accords with a similar enlistment date of around June 1916.

He was posted to the 3/5 Bedfordshire Regiment a 'third line or Reserve Territorial Force (TF) formation. Posted to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion on the 31st January he was in a draft sent to France the following day, and posted in the UK to the 6th Battalion, Bedfordshire Regiment.  As often happened at the Infantry Base Depot in France, in this case Number 17 at Etaples, the draft was reposted to the 10th SWB on the 17th February 1917.  (The war diary mentions the band paying a 'party of reinforcements to the camp', no mention of numbers.)

As for the 18th October the diary recounts heavy shelling and also a fighting patrol which resulted in 5 men being wounded before they were forced to withdraw due to machine gun fire.

 

We can't say Pte Roe's  service mirrored that of Pte Pitts until the posting to the 3rd Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment and immediate deployment to the BEF but it seems likely, Pte Pitts was local to Bedfordshire (Biggleswade). 40374 Quick (St Albans) followed a very similar route i.e. 3/5 Beds in October 1916, then to France.

However Soldiers Died in Great War shows Pte Roe was in the TF of the Bedfordshire Regiment (8634) no residence given but born in St Albans and enlisted Bedford.

In 1917 the Government and the Army declared a 'manpower crisis' and many men were posted out of Home service Units ('combed out') and sent to France.

[roselyn2]

gwentpal.  If you come across any information on 44468 Pte. John Hales.  Winner of the Military Medal missing pair.  with the 10th. Battalion .  L. G. 1. 10 1917.   Or if any other member can help.   Thank you.    Lyn.

[kenf48]

2

41 minutes ago, roselyn2 said:

gwentpal.  If you come across any information on 44468 Pte. John Hales.  Winner of the Military Medal missing pair.  with the 10th. Battalion .  L. G. 1. 10 1917.   Or if any other member can help.   Thank you.    Lyn.

 

He appears to be a Derby Scheme Recruit, (or conscript) previously Training Reserve 12042 in a draft posted to France 23.12.1916 destined for 2nd Battalion but reposted at IBD Rouen.

No drafts shown in the war diary for January/ February.

[roselyn2]

kenf48.  Thank you once again for your help.  Did not mention that he has also got the number 12042. T. Res.  on his M. I. Card.    Lyn.

[kenf48]

11 hours ago, roselyn2 said:

Did not mention that he has also got the number 12042. T. Res.  on his M. I. Card.

It's on the Medal Rolls, and quite useful as it indicates the size of the draft which enables us to look for other records.

I don't know Pte. Hales civilian occupation but it appears this cohort were older men who had enlisted voluntarily, or under the Derby Scheme and were originally posted to, and served with, the Royal Engineers usually in the Home Army.  On the 24th November 1916 they were posted to the 60th Training Reserve Battalion (previously 3rd Rhonnda Welsh Regiment see

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve ) and renumbered in the 12*** series - the prefix TR/4 is not shown on the Rolls.

The draft appears to run at least 44390 Dodson - 44481 Lewis (other blocks of the TR are present but this group are all in the 12*** series).

On the 23 December 1916 they embarked on the Copenhagen from Southampton and were originally posted to the 2nd Bn.   On arrival at Rouen they were posted to the 10th and 11th Battalions. 

Having dug a little deeper and found a few more records it appears the draft joined the 10th Battalion on the 21st March 1917, the war diary recording, "a draft of 61 ORs joined the Batt. from Reinforcement Camp".

His RE service. if indeed that is what it was and seems likely, together with his date called up, in the absence of a record, remains to be established.

 

As for his Military Medal, this honour was awarded following the attack on Pilckem and Iron Cross Ridges ( Third Ypres) between the 31/7/1917 and 3 August 1917.  He is in a list in the war diary entry dated 16th August 1917, interestingly he appears as 'Dr Hales'(I read as Driver) rather than Pte.- Private.  The diary records in the action report that the 'runners and stretcher bearers performed extraordinarily good work'.

Speculative, but Driver implies he was in the Transport Section and may have been one of the stretcher bearers or runners mentioned and singled out for the award.  Again in the absence of a citation your guess is as good as mine.