10th Batt South Wales Borderers

[Ralff]

hi kenf48

 

thanks for your rapud reply.

Is it possible for you to let me know where you got this info from as had no idea thatthere was any more info around about my grandfather around

again very many thanks for your reply

[kenf48]

The enlistment date is taken from surviving service records i.e. 20714 enlisted Abercarn 15th December 1914 and 20744 at Ebbw Vale on the 1st January 1915 (joining the Bn two weeks later in Colwyn Bay.  That means your two must have enlisted between those dates.  Speculatively I'd suggest they enlisted just before or just after Christmas locally joining the Battalion at Colwyn Bay early in the New Year.

 

In "The History of the South Wales Borderers 1914 -1918" C. T.Atkinson - pub. 1931notes 'by the end of the year the Battalion took 600 other ranks to Colwyn Bay. Here recruits continued to pour in steadily, batches of 50 or more arriving at frequent intervals..."  Atkinson also gives a short account of their training in England prior to going to France.  As you have the war diary I did not cover that, however if you can get a copy of the history from the library Atkinson places their actions in context and their interaction within the Brigade in a much more readable account. 

 

The 1914-1915 Star Rolls (on Ancestry) give date to France, which coincides with the date the Battalion embarked, and the discharge dates quoted.  The BWM and Victory Rolls show both men only served in the 10th Bn.

 

I suspect from the latter Roll entries Jones was wounded more than once.  Local newspapers often published casualty lists but I haven't looked. I also imagine Whitcombe was awarded a Silver War Badge, again I've not looked.

 

Ken

[Ralff]

dear Ken,

thank you very much for you replies. I know Eddie Jones was wounded  at least once as he often showed me his shoulder wound. The bullet was found in his thigh during his post mortem in 1956.

 

I'll keep cracking on with ancestry.

 

again many thanks for the help 

 

 

[Guest Craigw]

I belive the william whitcombe you are referring to is my grandfather.  I just found his medal record today and the service number matches the one you show.  From Risca just down the road from Abercarn. 

 

[Ralff]

hi

Craig W.

Uncle Bill Whitcombe lived in Bristol, so hopefully he is the same chap as your grandfather. Let me if its true or I've got the wrong Ted Jones

tim

 

[Ralff]

hi

does anyone know the whereabouts of camp X, camp Z or camp A where 10th btn were billeted and underwent training jan to may 1917.

 

many thanks if anyone can help

tim

[kenf48]

For Camp D the war diary gives the map reference 

It's sheet NW28 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=10&lat=50.8768&lon=2.6680&layers=60&b=1&point=50.8685,2.7724

followed by the reference A30a42

 

You will see they moved on the 14 January and detrained at Popheringe at 11am and marched to Camp D.

 

Map references are given throughout the diary.  The site I linked to above allows you to overlay with present day Google maps and is worth exploring further.

Maps can also be found online at Mcmasters a personal view is this site is easier to navigate for a novice.

 

Advice on reading a trench map can be found on the WFA site here  and on the LLT.

Best done on a desk top or reasonable screen size  rather than a mobile device!

 

As Atkinson notes the eleven months between the opening of the Somme and the attack at Messines was the quietest period on the Ypres salient.  Both the 10th and 11th Bns were well under strength, they were engaged, 'holding one or other of the Eigth Corps sectors'.

 

Ken

 

[Ralff]

hi Ken,

yet again thank you very much for your help and advice

I am truly greatful

tim

[mikerose]

Hi great gramp sgt frederick rose 21216 severed with the 10th he landed in France in 1915, I managed to find reference to him in 1917 I think from memory leading a digging party. From family story's he was gassed and was transferred to the labour corps. He died in 1938

[Ron da Valli]

A work colleague has asked me to trace her great uncle. Private 39489 Sidney Herbert Farley 10th SWB. KIA 3/11/18 . Would you have any information about him please?

 Many thanks in advance.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Ron da Valli said:

A work colleague has asked me to trace her great uncle. Private 39489 Sidney Herbert Farley 10th SWB. KIA 3/11/18 . Would you have any information about him please?

 Many thanks in advance.

 

Pte Farley was in a draft of men from the Monmouthshire Regiment (previous number 3073) who embarked Folkestone 14 September 1916; disembarked Rouen 15 September.   At the IBD became subject to AO 204 (transfer of TF men to regular or New Army units).  Posted to 2nd Bn and renumbered 27-9-1916; joined Bn 28-9-1916.

 

At some point he returned to the IBD (we don't know if he was evacuated to U.K.) and posted to the 10th Bn.  Casualty record may offer a clue.

 

He was in a second line unit of the Monmouthshire, which tended to be raised locally so as he enlisted  Newport would probably be 2/1 -  see LLT.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron da Valli]

Thanks very much Ken, some valuable information there. Much appreciated.

 

[Guest]

Hello,

My Great Uncle was a private in the 10th bat Royal Welsh Borderers and was killed 17/09/1918 aged 21.  He was from Abertillery. I am just wondering whether anyone could help me with how he died and any info on his service.  My wife has an Uncle buried in Varennes who also died in 1918 and we will be visiting next year so would be great to have more info. Simon

[Bernard_Lewis]

What was his name? Do you have his service number? (It'll be on the rim of his medals, if you have them.) Where was he living before army service? Parent's names or name of wife?

 

Bernard

[boeta86]

My great-grandfather served in the 10th Bn.

 

21000 Pte George Harding

 

Disembarkation for France 03.12.1915 

 

Hope that helps. That's all I have to go on at the moment but I intend to find out more about him. Any suggestions what else I can find out? I'm assuming the regimental museum at Breckon will have some papers in their archive..?

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, boeta86 said:

My great-grandfather served in the 10th Bn.

 

21000 Pte George Harding

 

Disembarkation for France 03.12.1915 

 

Hope that helps. That's all I have to go on at the moment but I intend to find out more about him. Any suggestions what else I can find out? I'm assuming the regimental museum at Breckon will have some papers in their archive..?

Welcome to the forum

It's unlikely the Regimental Museum will have information on individual soldiers.

 

Your first port of call should be 'The Long Long Trail' - 'Researching a Soldier link top right.

 

As you say he served with the 10th Bn, apparently throughout the war, landing with the main body in December 1915.  The Medal Rolls for the BWM and VM (Ancestry) show there a number of entries, all for the 10th Bn.  There is little consistency as to how the rolls were compiled across Regiments but that usually indicates breaks in service so it may be worth checking casualty lists, initially in local or national newspapers.

 

The war diary is also available on Ancestry but if you don't subscribe can be downloaded from TNA http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354169

 

The service records were weeded by the Luftwaffe in round 2 and his record has not survived the fire that followed the bombing of the repository. (See LLT).

 

As he survived there is precious little in the online records.  He was discharged to the Class Z Reserve on 23.1.1919, this means he was still considered to be fit enough to be recalled to the colours should the Armistice break down.

 

There is a Regimental History of the SWB in WW1 by C.T. Atkinson but that deals with each Battalion of the Regiment.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

[boeta86]

6 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the forum

It's unlikely the Regimental Museum will have information on individual soldiers.

 

Your first port of call should be 'The Long Long Trail' - 'Researching a Soldier link top right.

 

As you say he served with the 10th Bn, apparently throughout the war, landing with the main body in December 1915.  The Medal Rolls for the BWM and VM (Ancestry) show there a number of entries, all for the 10th Bn.  There is little consistency as to how the rolls were compiled across Regiments but that usually indicates breaks in service so it may be worth checking casualty lists, initially in local or national newspapers.

 

The war diary is also available on Ancestry but if you don't subscribe can be downloaded from TNA http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354169

 

The service records were weeded by the Luftwaffe in round 2 and his record has not survived the fire that followed the bombing of the repository. (See LLT).

 

As he survived there is precious little in the online records.  He was discharged to the Class Z Reserve on 23.1.1919, this means he was still considered to be fit enough to be recalled to the colours should the Armistice break down.

 

There is a Regimental History of the SWB in WW1 by C.T. Atkinson but that deals with each Battalion of the Regiment.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much Ken.

 

I visited TNA in September to do some digging on him and my great-uncle (Henry P. Thomas, 17th Bn, Welsh Regiment, later 9th Ent Bn, then 14th Welsh) and got the basic information from the Medal Index cards and Service Medal and Award Rolls. We already had his number and Regiment, but only after my visit to TNA did we manage to confirm his Battalion. I'm aware many records were lost during the bombing of WW2, but out of interest, what kind of information would be on the Service Records? Do they include attestation papers? Also, is there any way (apart from mentions in the War Diaries) of knowing which Company and individual served with?

 

Oh, and one final question, I've attached my g-grandfather and my g-uncle's Medal Index cards (I think ?), but I'm a little confused as to the details in the columns underneath their names. Could anyone explain to me what it says? And is there any significance as to why Harding has 'France' next to 'Theatre of war first served in' while Thomas' is blank (as we know Thomas was in France!)?

 

Sorry for all these questions!

 

Meilyr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, boeta86 said:

I'm a little confused as to the details in the columns underneath their names. Could anyone explain to me what it says?

They are just the numbers of the actual medal rolls where his name and entitlement will be registered.

 

1 hour ago, boeta86 said:

And is there any significance as to why Harding has 'France' next to 'Theatre of war first served in' while Thomas' is blank (as we know Thomas was in France!)?

They stopped putting the date in after 31/12/1915.

So someone without a date, will have gone overseas after this date.

[boeta86]

11 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

They are just the numbers of the actual medal rolls where his name and entitlement will be registered.

 

They stopped putting the date in after 31/12/1915.

So someone without a date, will have gone overseas after this date.

 

Thank you / Diolch! That makes sense for the 17th Welsh Bn, as they didn't arrive in France until June 1916.

[kenf48]

5 hours ago, boeta86 said:

 

I'm aware many records were lost during the bombing of WW2, but out of interest, what kind of information would be on the Service Records? Do they include attestation papers? Also, is there any way (apart from mentions in the War Diaries) of knowing which Company and individual served with?

 

 

The surviving service records can be found on both Ancestry and Find My Past, both of whom offer a free trial, or can be viewed at your local library (due to cutbacks some libraries only offer one).  If you intend to subscribe there have been frequent debates on the forum as to which one is best, the general consensus, if you can afford it is both.  The digitised copies of the records are more or less complete though Ancestry has some indexing problems.  One major exception is that where a man served beyond 19120 his record may be held at the MOD but we know Pte Gardner was discharged in 1919.

 

The papers were retrieved from the Arnside Street warehouse after the fire and are often burnt, and often incomplete but generally they do include attestation papers (Army Form B2505);

Statement of Service and some medical history (Army Form B178 and arguably the most useful of all, the Casualty Active Service Form (Army form B103).  Unfortunately not all these documents appear in all the surviving files, and often they are fire or water damaged.  The records also contain a variety of administrative documents, receipts etc.  A full list of the documents lost is on the LLT http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

 

The service record, where it survives seldom mentions which Company a man served in.  TF Battalions tended to have a geographic reference initially but as the war progressed men were moved around frequently.

 

Sadly it appears that Henry's record has not survived either.

 

The closest I could find to Pte 21000 Gardner was 20998 who enlisted Abertillery 20th January 1915 and 21014 Gazzard enlisted Colwyn Bay attested on the 20 January 1915 but struck through and joined Bn on 22nd.   After enlistment it appears neither of these men went on active service overseas, but they indicate Pte Gardner volunteered around the 20 January 1915.

 

Ken

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 hours ago, boeta86 said:

 

Thank you / Diolch!

 

Croeso.

[Guest]

Hi. Im looking for any information about my great grandfather. David Griffith Owen. Private 31325 10th south wales borderers. KIA 26th august 1918. 

Thankyou for your help

Phil

 

 

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Phil O said:

Hi. Im looking for any information about my great grandfather. David Griffith Owen. Private 31325 10th south wales borderers. KIA 26th august 1918. 

Thankyou for your help

Phil

 

 

 

This man is mentioned by Clive Hughes at post 12 above.  Clive has made a study of the men from Anglesey.

 

I don't knowPte Owen's personal details but he was mobilized to the 3rd Bn SWB between the 21st and 23rd July 1917.  Depending on his age he was either conscripted or attested under the Derby Scheme. 

Training was a minimum of 12 weeks at this stage of the war so he probably went to France towards the end of the year.  He would have gone to the Infantry Base Depot and from there been posted to the 10th Battalion. He only served with that Battalion, looking at the Medal Rolls it appears to have been a relatively small draft and at a quick glance does not appear to have been recorded in the War Diary.

 

The action on the 26th August was in the vicinity of High Wood and was conducted with great dash and courage by the Battalion.  There is a full account of the action in the war diary which can be downloaded from The National Archives for a small sum, or viewed on Ancestry.  As you would probably wish to follow his war I'd recommend downloading the diary to keep.  The diary does not mention him by name but notes '50+' other rank casualties that day, this would included the wounded and missing as well as those who died.

 

Can I also suggest you have  a look at the parent site the Long Long Trail, link top right for information on how to research a soldier.

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 7 March , 2018 by kenf48

[Guest]

Thank you Ken. That is incredably helpful. Thats great information and i will look into the long long trail and also the war diarys.

Thanks again

Phil

[Mel93]

Hi looking for any information about my great uncle 10/23043 Pte James Henry Lewis 10th bn SWB killed in action 3/4/1916.  Age 20, He is buried at Windy corner cemetery Givenchy.  He was from Gray St Abertillery

Thanks