BereniceUK Posted 16 May , 2014 Share Posted 16 May , 2014 (edited) Having a problem identifying this man. His name appears on a fairly recent family headstone (below) in Tyldesley Cemetery but CWGC doesn't list a J.L. Worthington. But on Tyldesley war memorial is a Joseph L. Worthington (no rank given). The only possibles that I can see, unless he's a CWGC non-commemoration, are 1875 Private J. Worthington, Manchester Regiment; 202362 Private J. Worthington, The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment; 252480 Private J. Worthington, Manchester. None of those three seems to have been awarded any medals. Edited 5 November , 2018 by BereniceUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis1918 Posted 16 May , 2014 Share Posted 16 May , 2014 Try 44090 Sjt J Worthington 78th Field Co Royal Engineers. Awarded DCM 1916 - For consistent good work in exposed and dangerous situations over a period of three months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 16 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2014 Try 44090 Sjt J Worthington 78th Field Co Royal Engineers. Awarded DCM 1916 - For consistent good work in exposed and dangerous situations over a period of three months Nope, I don't see him on CWGC. Where did you get that from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis1918 Posted 16 May , 2014 Share Posted 16 May , 2014 DCM citations on Ancestry. Can't find him as a casualty though . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 16 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2014 Odd. UKNIWM says that Tyldesley war memorial was unveiled in November 1922 so perhaps he died between 1st September 1921 and November 1922. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntanner Posted 16 May , 2014 Share Posted 16 May , 2014 Only one possible casualty WORTHINGTON, JACK Rank: Serjeant Service No: 9217 Date of Death: 04/09/1916 Age: 28 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 116th Coy. Grave Reference Plot 1. Row B. Grave 5. Cemetery ACHEUX BRITISH CEMETERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 16 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2014 Only one possible casualty WORTHINGTON, JACK Rank: Serjeant Service No: 9217 Date of Death: 04/09/1916 Age: 28 Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 116th Coy. Grave Reference Plot 1. Row B. Grave 5. Cemetery ACHEUX BRITISH CEMETERY But no medals. Without wanting to upset a family history perhaps things got a bit distorted with time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Emma Badrock was James William Badrock's wife. Her maiden name was Worthington and she was born in Q3 1901, at Atherton. The marriage took place in 1922 and was registered in Leigh. The name behind the flowers on the headstone is Annie Worthington, died 21 December 1935. She was born at Atherton in 1876 and was married to Joseph Worthington, born in 1876 at Tyldesley. In the 1911 census, they are shown as having a son, also called Joseph, born in 1900 and, by 1911, they had two more children, Bertha (aged 5) and Henry (aged 2) - my guess is that Emma was born a few months after the census was taken and, possibly, Robert - who is also on the headstone - was born in 1913/ 14. In 1911, the family were living at 23 New Bank Street Tyldesley. I am fairly certain that this is the family commemorated on the headstone. Joseph, born 1900 and son of Joseph and Annie, enlisted at Leigh in September 1915. He gave his address as 23 New Bank Street, Tyldesley and told the authorities that he was 19 years and 4 months old. He joined 3rd/ 5th Manchester Regiment and was "provisionally" promoted to Lance Corporal in November 1915 - before being discharged on 13 December on the grounds of having made a "false attestation"; presumably, this was because he had lied about his age? The big problem is that I still can't connect this family with a Serjeant who was killed in action in 1916, with or without a DCM and a MM. It seems improbable that it is Joseph, the son, as he had only been discharged in December 1915 and I am wondering then if it could have been the father, although he would have been around 38 when the War started. This obviously doesn't take you much further forward, I'm afraid, but I thought I would post it in the hope that it proves useful all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 The Jack Worthington in post #6 comes from the right general area - born in nearby Pendleton, enlisted at Manchester. It looks like a modern memorial (same font used for all the engravings, etc) so it's possible that details have been lost to the family over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Got him (I think) - Sgt J Worthington, Grenadiers, 25 New Bank Street. Bottom of this page - http://www.arnw02593.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/tyldesley_at_war_1914.htm That said, I can only find one MIC for a J Worthington, Grenadiers and thats Pte John W, 17389. Nothing on the card to indicate a fatality. No-one likely on SDGW. My Oversea Deaths CD is playing up so I can't look for any listing of a death certificate issued. Does anyone have a copy and can check, please. Looking at the photo on the link, I assume he will be Joseph Worthington, the head of the household listed on the 1911 census, then aged 37. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 The address on the actual newspaper cutting is 23 New Bank Street, rather than 25 (the Tyldesley and District Historical Society have mis-read or mis-typed it) - DCM, MM, killed; it all fits. It looks like it might be Joseph Senior but I still can't find any Sgt J Worthingtons on CWGC, SDGW, in the London Gazette or even an MIC. CWGC has only four Grenadiers killed during the War with both a DCM and a MM. None is called Worthington but one of them is called Sgt Joseph LYON (Reg No. 10371) and according to SDGW, he enlisted at Manchester and had been born in Tyldesley... died 16 September 1916, whilst serving with 2nd Bn, Grenadier Guards. Is it possible that Joseph Worthington served under the alias Joseph Lyon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 A possibly very good call on the Lyon. That might account for the middle initial of "L". Common family practice of the time to have your middle name as your mother's maiden surname. Another member has checked the Overseas Deaths listing and there's no likely Worthington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Nope. I think I've found Joseph & Ann's marriage in 1895 at St George's, Tyldesley. She was Ann Almond. Can't find a Lyon link to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 17 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Thanks for all the hard work, guys. Not the sort of in-depth research I can do so I really do appreciate you looking this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 17 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Emma Badrock was James William Badrock's wife. Her maiden name was Worthington and she was born in Q3 1901, at Atherton. The marriage took place in 1922 and was registered in Leigh. The name behind the flowers on the headstone is Annie Worthington, died 21 December 1935. She was born at Atherton in 1876 and was married to Joseph Worthington, born in 1876 at Tyldesley. In the 1911 census, they are shown as having a son, also called Joseph, born in 1900 and, by 1911, they had two more children, Bertha (aged 5) and Henry (aged 2) - my guess is that Emma was born a few months after the census was taken and, possibly, Robert - who is also on the headstone - was born in 1913/ 14. In 1911, the family were living at 23 New Bank Street Tyldesley. I am fairly certain that this is the family commemorated on the headstone. Joseph, born 1900 and son of Joseph and Annie, enlisted at Leigh in September 1915. He gave his address as 23 New Bank Street, Tyldesley and told the authorities that he was 19 years and 4 months old. He joined 3rd/ 5th Manchester Regiment and was "provisionally" promoted to Lance Corporal in November 1915 - before being discharged on 13 December on the grounds of having made a "false attestation"; presumably, this was because he had lied about his age? The big problem is that I still can't connect this family with a Serjeant who was killed in action in 1916, with or without a DCM and a MM. It seems improbable that it is Joseph, the son, as he had only been discharged in December 1915 and I am wondering then if it could have been the father, although he would have been around 38 when the War started. This obviously doesn't take you much further forward, I'm afraid, but I thought I would post it in the hope that it proves useful all the same. Thank you very much for this research, I assume you've tried to work out who he was yourself! I suspect, with all due respect to the family, that the medal info isn't accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Thank you very much for this research, I assume you've tried to work out who he was yourself! I suspect, with all due respect to the family, that the medal info isn't accurate. On the contrary - I think there is a good possibility that he won both the DCM and the MM - but serving under the alias "Joseph Lyon". Problem is, I can't prove it and as John Hartley rightly points out, there is no obvious reason why Joseph should have chosen the name "Lyon" (although, born in around 1876, he might have had good reason to lie about his age). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 Since the Grenadiers' WW1 service records are still with the Regiment, would it be worth the chance of asking them (and paying a fee) for a copy of the information? If Lyon's next of kin matched the Worthington family details, that should confirm it? I'd be surprised if his married & family allowance and so on was being paid to someone other than his wife (and they would have asked for a wedding certificate plus birth certs. for any children under 14, and copied that information). Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 17 May , 2014 Share Posted 17 May , 2014 There's a will available for 10371 Joseph Lyon - died 15 Sep 1916. MIC shows DCM and MM. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=lyon&Year=1916 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 17 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2014 I'll ask Tyldesley library if they have any local newspapers on microfilm for 1916 and I'll go check the second half of September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 19 May , 2014 Share Posted 19 May , 2014 I'll ask Tyldesley library if they have any local newspapers on microfilm for 1916 and I'll go check the second half of September. If they don't the Museum of Wigan Life (formerly the History Shop) should have, as Tyldesley is part of Wigan MBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 May , 2014 Share Posted 19 May , 2014 I assume the local newspaper will be the Leigh Journal. That's where the photo that I linked to in post #10 was taken from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 19 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2014 It will be Leigh library I need to go to as Tyldesley library doesn't have local newspapers on microfiche. There might also be the Leigh Chronicle in addition to the Journal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 In a will dated 9 September 1916, Sjt 10371 Joseph Lyon, Grenadier Guards left his whole property and effects to his wife, Annie Worthington of 23 New Bank Street, Tyldesley. It is signed "Joseph Lyon (Worthington)". In "The Grenadier Guards in the Great War, 1914-18", Lt-Col the Right Hon Sir Frederick Ponsonby makes several references to Serjeant Lyon, which I have transcribed, including details of the actions in which he won his DCM and, later, met his death. All three volumes are available to download on line but I will post my transcription of the relevant sections here shortly. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 23 May , 2014 Share Posted 23 May , 2014 As promised, I attach a transcription of some extracts from "The Grenadier Guards in The Great War" by Lt-Col the Right Hon Frederick Ponsonby which refer to Serjeant Lyon/ Worthington. C Joseph Lyon.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BereniceUK Posted 23 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2014 In a will dated 9 September 1916, Sjt 10371 Joseph Lyon, Grenadier Guards left his whole property and effects to his wife, Annie Worthington of 23 New Bank Street, Tyldesley. It is signed "Joseph Lyon (Worthington)". In "The Grenadier Guards in the Great War, 1914-18", Lt-Col the Right Hon Sir Frederick Ponsonby makes several references to Serjeant Lyon, which I have transcribed, including details of the actions in which he won his DCM and, later, met his death. All three volumes are available to download on line but I will post my transcription of the relevant sections here shortly. C The above article was in the Leigh Journal of 6th October 1916. Below is from the same newspaper of 8th November 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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