German staff car?

[martin_sole]

Another interesting point with limousine cars of this era is that they were designed to have changeable bodies. The summer time, open topped tourer would be no fun for the Graf when it was bitter cold, so in a few hours, that body could be unbolted and substituted with an enclosed one with roof and windows. I'd guess that the coachwork for a military staff car would be something specifically made, rather than just a civilian model painted grey

[Khaki]

I was going to jump in and suggest the car that Archduke Ferdinand & wife were in as an existing German staff car, but when I checked my facts it's a different make altogether.

khaki

[David Filsell]

I am not at all convinced that limousines were "designed to have changeable bodies" although they were designed to enable most kinds of body to be fitted.

Expensive vehicles were generally sold as complete running chassis upon which the buyer could have the body of his choice fitted by a coach builder before and after WW1.

The frame was in wood, generally ash in the UK, which was then metal panelled or, if lightweight was required, fabric covered. Although soundwhen on a chassis - of chassis their integrity is very poor.

While it is true that some cars were totally re-bodied at times as fashion changed it would be a major task to remove a body, upholstery and mechanisms and replace it with a spare body spring and autumn.

Broadly speaking if you could afford one limousine you could probably afford two - one open one closed. It would have been far easier.

In fact I have never heard of the practice in 50 years of interest and reading about classic cars.

But as I have said on this thread already , I could be wrong, but I do doubt the assertion (if only totally!).

[martin_sole]

I am not at all convinced that limousines were "designed to have changeable bodies" although they were designed to enable most kinds of body to be fitted.

Expensive vehicles were generally sold as complete running chassis upon which the buyer could have the body of his choice fitted by a coach builder before and after WW1.

The frame was in wood, generally ash in the UK, which was then metal panelled or, if lightweight was required, fabric covered. Although soundwhen on a chassis - of chassis their integrity is very poor.

While it is true that some cars were totally re-bodied at times as fashion changed it would be a major task to remove a body, upholstery and mechanisms and replace it with a spare body spring and autumn.

Broadly speaking if you could afford one limousine you could probably afford two - one open one closed. It would have been far easier.

In fact I have never heard of the practice in 50 years of interest and reading about classic cars.

But as I have said on this thread already , I could be wrong, but I do doubt the assertion (if only totally!).

http://carsalways.com/2013/01/02/1914-mercedes-benz-up-for-auction-with-two-bodies/

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I presume all the tyres were removed because they were not shot up and were very useable elsewhere.

David,

You are correct to suggest that the rubber tyres on the German Staff Car shown in post # 1, could have been deliberatively removed for recycling, as they would have been extremely sought after.

Due to embargos applied by the Allies, Germany had major problems importing rubber for vehicle tyres, and so they had to devise some rather weird but nevertheless inventive and ingenious methods for replacing rubber tyres for their vehicles.

One method seen in the attached photo of a German Opel Staff Car, was the use of iron-shod sprung wheels in which a series of small leaf springs are used to separate the inner and outer rims of the wheel, as would normally be provided by conventional air-filled tyres.

While these ' metal tyres ' probably provided a very uncomfortable ride, they kept the German Army's vehicles on the move.

Also, again note the flat radiator grill on this WW1 German Opel Staff car.

Regards,

LF

[David Filsell]

Martin

Thank you a very convincing argument in your favour.

It is most certainly the first time that I have come across such a vehicle - however I do no believe (for reasons already given) it could have been common.

A quibble - if you notice the driver's compartment is open on the 'town car'. I wonder if only the rear section from behind the driver's seat could be removed. This would be rather easier than the suggestion that that the entire body was removable since the steering and other rude mechanicals would have been able to remain in situ. But having been taught a lesson I still believe that removable bodies must have been extremely rare (as suggested by the auctioneers' wording). It would be fascinating to hear of any other examples. Are there any?

Again thank you .

David

[martin_sole]

No idea if there are any similar.

The sale price was $962,500 !!

For that money, I'd want it to come with a summer body, a winter body, a swimming pool and wings like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

[David Filsell]

Plus chauffeur, a motor house and hot and cold. Running chambermaids.

[Raypalmer]

Hello Ray, very nice photo,always good to see soldiers actually having some fun, do you know (approx) when the photo was taken or perhaps your gt uncles name & unit etc. It might help give some 'personality' to the image , by the way which one is your gt uncle??

khaki

(Belated) Thanks Khaki. My Gt-Uncle is the one with the fag in his mouth!! He was Alfred James Palmer, from Cardiff. No clue as to the date - he served the whole four years and survived, though he was injured and spent a short while in a hospital .... somewhere!

I know from a letter he wrote in old age that he was at The Somme, but otherwise I've not been able to find any records. Thanks for your interest.

Ray

[Raypalmer]

Ray,

Do you know anything about what your Great Uncle was in the war? Looking at the tight pattern of bullets to the front of the car and its radiator, plus the windscreen shot in and also noting how your Great Uncle has assumed the role of driver of the car, to me it tends to suggest he played a key role in stopping the car and I wonder if he was a Lewis/machine gunner? I presume all the tyres were removed because they were not shot up and were very useable elsewhere.

David

Belated thanks David.

Your comments are tantalising, but I'm afraid I can add little of help to the story. My Gt-Uncle isn't the driver, he's the one with the undignified fag in his mouth! Despite exhaustive (and exhausting!) efforts I've not really found out much about his record. He served for the full four years, and survived. I know from a snippet of correspondence when he was an old man that he was at the Somme - he wrote an emotional account of meeting his brother - unexpectedly - on the eve of battle. But that's all I have I'm afraid.

Thanks for your interest

Ray

[Raypalmer]

Thanks for your comments everybody. I found them all really interesting - even the brief 'exchange of fire' in the middle ..!

Ray

[Steve1958]

I know this is an old thread but I saw today a panel taken from a German staff car from Nord France 7th November 1918, no idea if its from the same car.  But I guess they were pretty common at that time.

[GreyC]

Hi I chanced upon this thread only now and I am not sure, if anybody is still interested in any comments by a German collecting photos of cars used in WW1, but maybe there are some. So here´s my penny´s worth:

To start of with the crest mentioned in the post above: it was the crest featured on many cars from Prussian units. After all, it´s the Prussian crest.

The Bavarians had their crest, also quite common to be seen. Much rarer are the crests of Saxony on the cars of Saxon units and the crest of the Kingdom of Württemberg on theirs.

Here for example an Opel of 1911/12 with a Bavarian crest:

To explain more about the car seen in #1 see my 2nd example, this Adler car. Red arrow = Prussian crest. Blue arrow = army that the car was allocated to. Yellow arrow: depot in Germany that supplied the car.

On the photo in #1 you have all these information, too:

The car in #1 was allocated to the XVIIIth army (blue circle) which tells us, that the photo was taken during the Operation Michael in the large German spring offensive of 1918, as this army was especially assembled for that purpose. So the photo was taken no earlier than spring 1918. The information circled yellow would give us the depot from which the car was sent to the front. Unfortunately I can´t read the number that would give the location away for those in the know.

Now to the comments made about the model pictured in this thread:

Lancashire Fusilier 3rd May 2014: I can find no example of an Opel with that type of shaped radiator grill being used during WW1, the only examples I have found all show the usual ' Opel ' flat fronted radiator grill.

Opel did make changes to the radiator grill, however, they were dated 1919/1920.

The so called Spitzkühler (pointed radiator grill) was already in use before WW1 and even Opel equipped at least one of his models with one, the 1913 sportscar 11/35hp model. However this type had a special shaped grill called a Schnabelkühler (Beacon radiator grill). This sportscar was very rare and there might have been other Opel types with one such radiator grill, they would be very rare, though. I have attached a large Benz with a Schnabelkühler, so you can see what I mean and how it differs from the "pure" Spitzkühler in lieu of prewar Opel models in my collection with that grill:

The grill shape of the car in the photo of #1 is most certainly a Mercedes or a Benz.

Here an advert of the Benz company with a Spitzkühler during WW1 borrowed from the site of a friend who has probably assembled the largest online photo-collection of pre WW2 German cars combined with an instructive blog. I contribute photos regularly.

https://vorkriegs-klassiker-rundschau.blog/

And here a Mercedes. Note the logo/star on the side. As this car was supplied by the Imperial Voluntary Automobile Corps it was privately owned. Therefore no depot number or army number. Note how the the gunsare attached  at the side:

To finish this off, I´d like to quote David Filsell, 5th May 2014: I still believe that removable bodies must have been extremely rare (as suggested by the auctioneers' wording). It would be fascinating to hear of any other examples. Are there any?

I don´t know if any more survived, but they were not as rare as David thinks they were. In German they are called Aufsatzkarosserie.

If you can read German or know how to use an online translator see here for a few examples:

https://vorkriegs-klassiker-rundschau.blog/2022/03/15/mit-spitzkuehler-einst-eine-raritaet-minerva-von-1914/

https://vorkriegs-klassiker-rundschau.blog/2022/03/09/der-diskrete-charme-der-limousine-presto-d-9-30-ps/

https://vorkriegs-klassiker-rundschau.blog/2018/06/08/1913-14-eine-horch-aufsatzlimousine-von-glaeser/

 

For those of you who are content with a quick look here a Horch model 1913 in use by the army with Aufsatzkarosserie by a famous coachbuilder from Dresden by the name of Gläser. Note the Schnabelkühler and the slight gap between the car´s body and the Aufsatz (top piece). The car was used at the Etappen-Kraftwagenpark der Armeeabteilung Woyrisch:

Maybe some of you find this helpful.

Best,

GreyC

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 June , 2023 by GreyC

[Great War Truck]

Thank you GreyC. That was very interesting and helpful.

[GreyC]

Hi,

glad you liked it!

Best,

GreyC

[egbert]

My German staff car is on ebay sale

 

 

[Interested]

Sorry to be pedantic, but isn't "crest" normally on the helmet above the armorial shield?

Perhaps they ought to be described as "arms"?

[GreyC]

That´s fine with me.

D.

[morrisc8]

One that`s not in good order.Photo from my collection

[GreyC]

Despite the sorry state the Car is in a good example of the way the Germans substituted rubber-tires.

GreyC