bobpike Posted 30 April , 2014 Share Posted 30 April , 2014 Can anyone help, please? A family historian is looking for info on Albert Cakebread who came from Clavering, Essex, killed in WW1, but is not on the Clavering memorial or elsewhere. Does not seem to be listed on CWGC either, Thanks, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillgorilla Posted 30 April , 2014 Share Posted 30 April , 2014 On CWGC, there is CAKEBREAD, A Rank: Rifleman Service No: S/24299 Date of Death: 02/08/1917 Regiment/Service: Rifle Brigade 2nd Bn. Grave Reference I. B. 16. Cemetery THE HUTS CEMETERY Additional Information: or could this potentially be him, he has an Essex link : CAKEBREAD, ALFRED Rank: Private Service No: 821 Date of Death: 27/10/1915 Age: 27 Regiment/Service: Australian Infantry, A.I.F. 25th Bn. Grave Reference Sp. Mem. A. 20. Cemetery EMBARKATION PIER CEMETERY Additional Information:Son of Alfred and Amy Cakebread. Native of Romford, Essex, England. or maybe this one : CAKEBREAD, A Rank: Lieutenant Date of Death: 07/07/1919 Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve H.M.S. Juno. Grave Reference IX. 7. 2. Cemetery COLOMBO (KANATTE) GENERAL CEMETERY Additional Information: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 30 April , 2014 Share Posted 30 April , 2014 SDGW shows that the above S/24299 Alfred Cakebread, Rifle Brigade was born in Clavering, Essex and is surely your man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 30 April , 2014 Share Posted 30 April , 2014 SDGW also lists him as resident in St. Pancras when he enlisted which perhaps explains why he is not on the Clavering War Memorial. Some of them had rules about having to be domiciled in the parish to be eligible for the name to appear. Might be worth checking memorials at St. Pancras but no guarantee if he was transient and/or left nobody behind there who would remember him when they put the memorial up. Also, there is service record on Ancestry for an Albert Cakebread who served in the Army Service Corps during the Boer War - enlisted May 1898 at age 18 years and 10 months on 24th May 1898. His father was Alfred Cakebread with an address of Hastings Green, Clavering. Could this also be your chap and evidence of earlier service? Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 1 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2014 Thank-you, there is an ALFRED on Clavering memorial, but no ALBERT; everything points to it being a confusion of forenames, difficult to see where to go from here. I'm most grateful, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 1 May , 2014 Share Posted 1 May , 2014 Looking at Freebmd there are 2 ALFRED Cakebread's with death records during the war. Alfred T. in Bromley registration district December 1/4 of 1915 2a/697 and Alfred in Poplar registration district September 1/4 of 1918 1C/364 The last one could be Alberts father as the age at death is listed as 66 - perhaps a civilian casualty? - (The first one is too young being only 24). If that is the case then he may be on the memorial as he was still living in Clavering whilst his son is not because he was'nt - if that makes sense? Being a Derbyshire lad I'm afraid I have very little knowledge of southern geography so have no idea how likely I am to be right. Might be worth you sending for that 66 year olds death cert though - to rule him in or out. Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 3 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2014 Thank you all, the last two are interesting although Bromley is south of London. Poplar is east London, nearer, but not obviously so. Is there any evidence that the Boer War Albert had a son Albert or even Alfred for that matter?kind regards, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 3 May , 2014 Share Posted 3 May , 2014 Hiya, Sorry for the delay - been out all day! - and I still don't have an answer. I will take a look at the 1911 census for a start and see who I find. The good news is that there can not be that many Cakebreads in Clavering. I assume that any I find will almost certainly be related. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 3 May , 2014 Share Posted 3 May , 2014 Alfred Cakebread from Saffron Walden? Short Service from 1898. ASC No 13908. What evidence is there of him being killed in WW1.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 Hi Johnboy, 13908 was ALBERT who's father was ALFRED (according to the service papers). As yet there is no evidence but they have an ALFRED on their memorial that now looks like he may be 13908's brother. The OP however wanted info on an ALBERT who was killed in WW1 so at the outset it looked like he might have fitted the bill. My census searches have so far turned up the following...... 1911 Census Address 13, Lewis Street, Kentish Town Head Levi Cakebread age 30 Married (6yrs) Cellerman Brewery Wife Hester Kate Cakebread age 28 Married Son John Henry Cakebread age 5 Single Son Allan Charles Cakebread age 3 Single Brother Albert Cakebread age 31 Single Horse Keeper Brewery Sister Phyliss Fanny(?) Toms age 15 Single Both Levi and Albert are shown as born in Clavering. As address of father given on Albert’s attestation paper is Hastings Green, Clavering, Essex............ 1891 Census Address 40, Starling Green, Clavering Head Alfred Cakebread Age 50 Married Farm Labourer Wife Louisa Cakebread Age 49 Married Son Allen Age 19 Single Farm Labourer Son Abel Age 15 Single Farm Labourer Son Albert Age 11 Single Scholar Son Levi Age 10 Single Scholar Son Alfred Age 5 Single Scholar 1911 Census Address 29, Clarence Road, N.W. Head Alfred Cakebread Age 27 Married Brewery Worker Wife Kate Cakebread Age 28 Married A note states married under 1 year at time of census. Both Alfred and Kate shown as born in Clavering. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 Hi Medaler, good work. The Kentish Town address should tie in with the St. Pancras info you gave in post #4. St. Pancras could well have been the registration district. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 Better yet - I've just found Alfred's Service record on Ancestry - address of widow - Mrs K. Cakebread, 1, Harwood Street, Chalk Farm. N.W.1 So, where did the "ALBERT who died in WW1" come from that started this off I wonder? - It does however look very much like the ALBERT who was ALFRED's brother did serve in the Boer War though. Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aradgick Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 The only death of an Albert Cakebread in the period 1914 to 1924 in Albert B Cakebread in 1919. He was born Q3/1878 in Poplar, East London Albert Cakebread, born Q3/1879 in Saffron Waldron (ie Clavering), died Q4/1929 in Islington, North London Andrewr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 A bit more......... By the time he was killed there were 2 children. Further interrogation of Freebmd has found that Kate's maiden name was Newman The children were :- Eric A. G. Cakebread - birth registered in September 1/4 of 1911 - 1b/175 Kate Cakebread - birth registered in December 1/4 of 1914 - 1b/55 Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 5 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2014 This is great research, please continue, many thanks, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Hi, I would love to continue, but I'm not sure where to go next. Having established (I think) the identity of the ALFRED on the memorial and that he had a brother ALBERT who served during the Boer War, I have not seen a sniff of anything to support the initial concept that ALBERT was also killed during the Great War. It might be useful to go back to the family historian quoted in the OP and ask what information they have to support the theory that Albert was killed. The Albert we are looking for was born in 1880 (ish) - from the ages declared on the census returns. There is a record for the death of an Albert Cakebread in December 1/4 of 1929, aged 50 in Islington 1b/157 - that could be him There is also a marriage record for an Albert Cakebread to an Edith M. Chambers in Pancras district in the March 1/4 of 1925 1b/136 - that could be him too - we do know that he was single in 1911 from the census. The point about the last 2 bits is that the emphasis should be placed on "could be" as, without the certificates, it is impossible to say if he is the right chap, though the odds do look good. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aradgick Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 One possibility is to find all the Albert Cakebread's who MIGHT have served, and then killed them off! For example, any Albert Cakebread born in 1880 +/- 1 year, would be around 50 in 1929. Andrewr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Searching MIC's at TNA reveals only 6 Albert Cakebreads who qualified for medals - only one of them does not have a middle name or initial T2/SR/03484 - a Driver in the Army Service Corps - "our" Albert's old unit - so he possibly rejoined - but no record for him with CWGC. The "Ancestry" version of this MIC shows date of entry 12/09/1915 and entitlement to 15 Star trio. Also states Cl Z which presumably means he survived the war and was demobilised as "Class Z" afterwards. So if it was him, he survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Just been down a blind alley - searched for Albert Cakebread's born between 1875 and 1885 on freebmd - none found! - was hoping to establish if "our" Albert had a middle name as this is not always shown on census returns and is not shown on his service record. Then again, it is not always shown on the registration details either! Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 5 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2014 You seem to have got so close without being able to take the last step to identity. I'm extremely grateful, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 If it's any consolation, our Cakebreads seem to have been the white sheep of the family. The rest of them were in and out of the local courts like clockwork, usually for poaching or beating policemen up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 White sheep? I did'nt mention the bit on Albert's service record for resisting the escort and striking his superior officers did I ? :-) I am happy I could help - I think I have almost ruled out an Albert being killed in the war and have a strong hunch that the WW1 MIC is for "our" Albert. Of course, if the medals exist in the family somewhere they will have his service numbers on them that will prove it. You may get further information from the medal roll's and those death and marriage certificates can cast further light - or perhaps obituaries in the local papers now you have an idea of the area and dates to search. Sadly however, all of those are outside my abilities - being about 140 mile away from Clavering. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 5 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Mike, Thank you immensely for all your help, it's been wonderful and much appreciated. I will pass it on to the family historian and see if he can make the final connection; if he does you'll be the first to know, kind regards, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Bob, You are most welcome, but I have a few more bits to add. Having gone through ALFRED's service record again, the address of his father is Starlings Green, not Hastings Green as previously stated. The handwriting was difficult on the first occasion it appeared in the documents but it makes a second and clearer appearance later on. If you go onto google images and search on "Starlings Green, Clavering" there are a couple of delightful old pictures that would seem to date from the time they were all alive and kicking. They make you wonder why they would ever want to leave. I suppose they thought it was a land worth fighting for, and I think they were probably right. On the military side of things, and you probably know all of this stuff anyway (so please forgive me if you do) but - Alfred's 2nd Btn Rifle Brigade have their war diary available to download from TNA. Sadly it's in 2 halves - WO 95/1731/3 and WO 95/1731/2 and therefore will cost just shy of £7.00 for both bits. You can find it here.......... http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res/3?_q=rifle%20brigade&_col=2&_ser=WO%2095 Whilst it will almost certainly not mention him by name, it will tell you where the lads were and what they were doing. He does not have a date of entry into theatre of war on his MIC and was only entitled to British War and Victory medals which widow signed for in 1921. His date of enlistment was 25th November 1915 but he was not called up until 13th July 1916. He embarked on 9th November 1916, landed the following day and joined 2nd Btn on 25th November 1916. He was out of action from 24th March 1917 to 4th May 1917 owing to problems with his heel. He was wounded in action on 31st July 1917 and died on 2nd August whilst in the care of 96th Field Ambulance. There is no indication of the nature of these wounds. At the time 2nd Btn were with 25th Brigade in the 8th Division. It would therefore seem that his fatal wound was received on the 1st day of the Battle of Pilkhem during the long slog of 3rd Ypres (Passchendaele). I have saved the best bit till last - It also seems that there were various bits of movement amongst his family members, with his widow going to stay with his family at "The Druce, Clavering" and "our" ALBERT staying at Chalk Farm. This is in actual fact the proof we were looking for as Albert is mentioned at age 40, living at 7, Hartland Road, Chalk Farm. The document is dated 28th November 1919 - so he survived the war. Of course, that still leaves us looking for an Albert Cakebread from Clavering who did not survive the war - But I don't think we are going to find one as there are no other Albert Cakebread's with a Clavering connection on either the 1881, 1891, 1901 or 1911 census returns. Still, we have discovered some fascinating stuff along the way. Please let me know of any further progress, I feel I know them all now! - If you unearth any pictures I would love to see what they looked like. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Hartland Road still exists. it is OFF Chalk Farm Road, on the Kentish Town side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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