were 12 gauge shot guns used

[shane]

hi all did they use 12 gauge shot guns in the first war

and if so did they have to reload there own shells at war or were they made in factories

shane

[centurion]

Yes

quite a bit of stuff on the forum - worth using the search facility - here is one example http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132029#entry1255015

[TonyE]

The above describes American use, but the British did not use shotguns in a combat role during the war,

Maxim had developed a weapon which fired multiple shotgun like charges which was designed to be fired in a trench that had been invaded by the enemy and the War Office purchased one example. However, British government legal opinion was that this contravened the various conventions and should not be used.

Britain used shotguns and clay pigeons extensively to train aircrew in gunnery techniques though.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

In 1914 the German governor of Togo was charged with war crimes as a result of German reservists amongst the settlers using shotguns at close quarters in bush situations. The horrible wounds caused were initially mistaken for dum dum injuries. When the mistake was realised the charges were dropped. A formal complaint was made by the German government to the US government via Switzerland that American shotgunners were in breach of the Hague convention. It was dismissed by US authorities as being "without legal merit" American shotgunner http://ww1photographs.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/shotgun-detail.jpg?w=584

[shane]

this was sundays find it was with some old items

so have no idea if this is war or not but its for 12 gauge shell reloads

Edited 12 March , 2014 by shane

[TonyE]

Sorry, but that is an ordinary commercial reloader. Nothing to do with WWI.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

British officers often took shotguns to war with them, thus a lieutenant in the Dorsets was able to supplement mess rations at Kut by shooting large numbers of starlings (apparently grilled starling on toast became a delicacy) and there have been stories of some officers on the Western Front carrying shotguns into battle, possibly because carrying a long arm rather than a revolver made them a less obvious target however the only confirmed example I can find of a British officer using a shot gun in action is from an earlier conflict when Col Burnaby (known in more sensational elements of the press as "the bravest soldier in he British Army") despatched a number of Arabs with one in the Battle of El Teb. There was some tut tutting about this not being quite the done thing and at the start of the next battle in the campaign he told an interviewing journalist that because of this he had given the gun to his servant and would be relying on sword and revolver instead. He did not survive.

[Khaki]

Apart from the more familiar 'trench shotgun' made by Winchester with the ventilated hand guard and bayonet boss, 97' riot shotguns made by the same company were used in guarding POW's and some of those shotguns may also have found their way into the front lines. It must be remembered that combat shotguns are cylinder bored and therefore have no choke to hold a tight pattern at any distance other than at close combat. Could a shooter hit an incoming grenade using OO buckshot using a trench shotgun?, it's possible but far from easy even for a skilled shooter.

khaki

[dman]

Usual spread of shot is 1" per yard

Effective range of shotguns is considered to be about 5o m (55 yards). Pattern at that range means that 3 pellets

(out of 9 in a 00 buck round) will impact a man sized target

Ammunition was usual factory loaded 12 gauge 00 buckshot rounds

These rounds were cardboard cased - would absorb water and become soggy or

swell up and fail to chamber

An all brass round was designed to overcome these problems, but was not ready in time for WW 1

It did serve as standard round in WW II until replaced in 1950's by plastic case rounds

[Khaki]

I would suggest that based on law enforcement shotgun use, that 25 yards is the effective practical range for 00 buckshot, 3 hits out of nine being less than 50% is not 'effective'

and that at 55 yards only solid slug load should be considered effective. My eldest son is a state qualified instructor for law enforcement standards and I confirmed this with him and also based it on my own qualification training using 00 loads. I am not suggesting that the statistics are flawed as even one hit out of nine could be fatal but I believe that 55 yards is the extreme range. In a combat situation at 55 yards rifleman -v- shotgunner, I believe that the rifleman would be the likely winner by accuracy and the shotgunner would be by chance.

khaki

[David Filsell]

Although I believe shotguns were used by the Us in Viet Nam, I was under the impression that they were excluded as legitimate weapons of war by the Geneva Convention. I have never read, or even seen the Convention. Are they so banned?

[genegwf]

David,

Shotguns are currently being issued and used in Aghanistan and Iraq by Army and Marine Corps units.

Units are issued Mossberg 590 A1 pump action action shotguns and Benelli semi-automatic shotguns.

The guns are used for breaching doors as well as anti-personnel weapons. The standard load is the

nine pellet buckshot load.

Gene

[msdt]

Was at Duxford Airfield (branch of the Imperial War Museum) on Saturday, and saw an example of a shotgun used by the British for jungle fighting during the Malayan campaign (in a jungle display). Have just Googled Malaya etc, and came up with this comprehensive article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun

Cheers,

Tony

[TonyE]

Somewhat off topic, but the Browning A5 self loading shotguns used in Malaya were very effective. Operational research showed that they had the highest kill rate compared to other weapons used on patrols. These were the Bren, LE No.5 rifle (Jungle carbine), M1 carbice and Sten gun.

The standard load was SG, which is the equivalent of the American 00 Buckshot, containing 9 lead shot with a diameter of .31 inch.

Regards

TonyE

[IRC Kevin]

The war diary of 1/4 King's Own records the issue of one shotgun to the battalion when they first move into the trenches in May 1915 in France. No mention of gauge or of ammunition type and there is never another mention of shotguns for the remainder of the war. Have to presume this was for some sort of vermin control or to take down enemy carrier pigeons and not intended for use against people.

[centurion]

The war diary of 1/4 King's Own records the issue of one shotgun to the battalion when they first move into the trenches in May 1915 in France. No mention of gauge or of ammunition type and there is never another mention of shotguns for the remainder of the war. Have to presume this was for some sort of vermin control or to take down enemy carrier pigeons and not intended for use against people.

I believe that 12 gauge flare cartridges were available for cylinder bore (no choke) shot guns - possibly used for this purpose? One shotgun would be unlikely to be adequate for vermin control and wouldn't enemy pigeons be flying away from the combat line - ie back to German HQs and/or communications centres?

[centurion]

Although I believe shotguns were used by the Us in Viet Nam, I was under the impression that they were excluded as legitimate weapons of war by the Geneva Convention. I have never read, or even seen the Convention. Are they so banned?

No the Germans claimed that it broke the Hague convention - see cable sent to US government.

"The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every [u.S.] prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life. This protest is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention [sic] respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918."

The article in question forbids weapons causing unnecessary suffering (such as expanding bullets, hollow points etc) but does not specifically prohibit shot guns

[centurion]

The US replied

[The provision of the Hague convention, cited in the protest, does not forbid the use of this weapon . In view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, and in view of the well-known effects of its present use, and in the light of a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun cannot be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest.

The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army .

f the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the United States to make such reprisals.

[IRC Kevin]

I believe that 12 gauge flare cartridges were available for cylinder bore (no choke) shot guns - possibly used for this purpose? One shotgun would be unlikely to be adequate for vermin control and wouldn't enemy pigeons be flying away from the combat line - ie back to German HQs and/or communications centres?

The battalion did have flare pistols at this time as one of the newbies managed to shoot himself in the hand trying to clean one which had a swollen flare jammed in the chamber. I understand your point about pigeons heading the wrong way, but I have seen homing pigeons fly very wide circles on being released before heading off in their proper direction and it's possible they were issued for this purpose on a 'just in case' basis, but opportunity never presented itself and the lack of a repeat mention lends credence to them being a waste of space in the trenches.

[TonyE]

I believe that 12 gauge flare cartridges were available for cylinder bore (no choke) shot guns - possibly used for this purpose? One shotgun would be unlikely to be adequate for vermin control and wouldn't enemy pigeons be flying away from the combat line - ie back to German HQs and/or communications centres?

There is no record that I know of regarding British 12b flares in WWI (or any other time)

The Very pistol had been the standard signalling pistol for some years prior to the introduction of the Webley.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

America made flares for shotguns and still does. Modern ones have a much higher altitude than those fired from a flare pistol and can therefore be seen over a wider area - the sort of thing that a battalion HQ might use.

[David Filsell]

thanks centurion - so not banned it is.

[Khaki]

What would be interesting would be photos of German soldiers using shotguns, I bet they did.

khaki

[TonyE]

America made flares for shotguns and still does. Modern ones have a much higher altitude than those fired from a flare pistol and can therefore be seen over a wider area - the sort of thing that a battalion HQ might use.

Please read what I posted.

I said I have seen no record of BRITISH shotgun flares in WWI. I know full well that American companies have made and do still make them but that has nothing to do with my point about British use.

Regards

Tonye

[centurion]

Please read what I posted.

I said I have seen no record of BRITISH shotgun flares in WWI. I know full well that American companies have made and do still make them but that has nothing to do with my point about British use.

Regards

Tonye

I'm not illiterate and I do know you are el supremo in regard to ammunition but you aint omniscient. and British soldiers did sometimes acquire and use stuff from the ex colonies