Underhand tactics on the Aisne?

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Matt,

I'll try and find the French regimental war diary for the actual regiment to the right of the West Yorks, although it is unlikely to use words like the French equivalent to routed, "falling back under pressure" might be more likely. Although it looks like the West Yorks' flank was left uncovered by the withdrawal of the French, I am a bit more sceptical of the claims about the white flag. Lt Ratcliffe of the 1st West Yorks, who was also taken prisoner that day, made no reference to it in a testimony he later gave to an enquiry into possible German abuses of the laws of war.

If you don't already have your Grandfather's ICRC POW records, including details of him being moved from Germany to be interned in Holland and his repatriation to Hull, then send me a message with your e-mail address and I'll send them to you (the files is too big to post).

Steve

[SteveMarsdin]

The French official record mentions nothing whatsoever of any retreat!

Hi Matt,

I've found the JMO of the French regiment immediately to the right of the West Yorks:

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=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#uielem_move=-1101%2C-230&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=169

It does actually say that they fell back, although it doesn't actually say routed ! (look at page 10 of 50, ignore the tab at the bottom which says 1915 it does relate to 1914)

Steve

[lostinspace]

Haig apparently didn't buy the white flag either; from Douglas Haig, War Diaries and Letters, 1914-1918, page 72: 'About 1 o'clock a heavy attack began on our right front in the section held by the new 18 Brigade. On the right was the West Yorkshire Regiment and the 2 Cavalry Brigade in the vicinity under General de Lisle. The latter reported personally to me that the West Yorks left their trenches and ran back to Paizy village headed apparently by the Colonel of the battalion. De Lisle and the 4th Dragoon Guards drove back a good many of the infantry at the point of their swords to the trenches...The Sussex Regiment...was in Paizy village as Divisional Reserve. This was hurried forward, and the situation was soon restored.' However, to be fair, Haig might have altered his view later as the editors (Gary Sheffiedl and John Bourne) didn't include the rest of the entries for September. Since the 2nd Battalion, Sussex Regiment was mentioned in Haig's account, I had a look at their war diary, and although the diarist noted the French withdrawal and the West Yorks being "driven in" nothing is said about a feigned surrender by the Germans.
Here is the West Yorks side of the story, from their history, pages 11 and 12: 'The Battalion stood to arms at 3-30 a.m. and shortly afterwards heavy shell fire opened on the French troops on the right flank. About 5 a.m. the enemy launched an infantry attack against the Turcos, who, having lost most of their officers and having suffered heavy casualties during the bombardment, withdrew from their forward trenches towards Paissy, leaving the right flank of the West Yorkshires in the air. An officers' patrol under Lieut. C.T. Meautys was sent out to reconnoitre the right of the battalion, but was fired upon and returned. "D" Company under Capt. Lowe was then ordered to advance and a position was taken up on some open ground facing right, but again rifle fire broke out: it was evident the French had regained their trenches and in the uncertain morning light had mistaken the British troops for the enemy....At 8 a.m. heavy rifle-fire was again opened on the West Yorkshires' trenches and Col. Towsey with Lieut. Meautys went forward to see what was happening. In going forward Lieut. Meautys was mortally wounded. Once more "D" Company was sent forward to reinforce "A" and"B" Companies in the firing line. Heavy firing continued all the morning and the French on the right of the Battalion again left their trenches. One company of the Royal Sussex Regiment and a Squadron of the 18th Hussars were brought up to strengthen the right flank of the battalion. Telephonic communication with the firing line having broken down, touch was possible only by means of runners, but "about 1-30 p.m." the official diary states, "a man ran back from the firing line and reported the companies in front had been captured and the Germans were advancing. From information collected it is certain that the Germans advanced under cover of the white flag on the right flank, and when our men went out to meet them they were surrounded and heavily fired on. Many were killed, a few escaped and eight officers and 436 other ranks were captured. Owing to the retirement of the French the Germans were able to get round our right flank and enfilade us with machine gun and rifle fire." The whole affair was a mystery, but it was evident the lost companies had been first tricked and then shot down or taken prisoners.'
Regardless of what actually happened, the West Yorks lost around 600 officers and other ranks that day.

Dave

[phil andrade]

Perhaps the West Yorks were manufacturing an excuse for a collapse of morale.

The capture of 444 officers and men is a conspicuously huge surrender from a single battalion.

Maybe the earlier episode, on a smaller scale, as depicted by Conan Doyle, was " adopted and applied " to the account of the West Yorks in order to provide a more palatable aspect to the narrative.

Conscious that I might be doing terrible injustice to the regiment here ; it's so easy to be sceptical, or even cynical....I hope that my suggestions are unfounded.

Phil ( PJA )

[lostinspace]

I doubt that we will ever know for sure, but it does seem odd that the Germans would have resorted to this type of ruse when they could apparently push the French (and the West Yorks) out of their trenches whenever they wanted to. Something is wrong somewhere but I think it's impossible to know exactly what happened given the existing records.

Dave

[Black Maria]

A similar White flag incident on the Aisne is recorded in some detail in Captain E.J Needham's memoir 'The First Three Months', he served with the 1st Northants ( this is the same incident as mentioned in post # 23 )

[phil andrade]

The trouble with stories of this kind is that they evoke all kinds of historiographical ghosts.

I remember, so clearly, as a schoolboy and an adolescent in the 1960s, when the fiftieth anniversary years were taking their course, being taught to disregard stories of German atrocities as lurid propaganda, and to attribute a large measure of moral equivalence to the protagonists on the Western Front. It was part and parcel, I suppose, of the prevailing attempt to caricature the Great War as a futile and unecessary conflict in which the victims were deceived by outrageous propaganda.

Things are different now : we are urged to accept that all too many of the accounts of German atrocities are true....look no further than the research of Alan Kramer.

In regard to this incident, I find myself wobbling a bit.

I must say that - contrary to my expectations - I found Conan Doyle's account of the 1914 fighting to be very fair, displaying a degree of equanimity that I find astonishing considering that it was written in the autumn of 1916.

If pressed to make up my mind, I would trust his depiction of the episode I cited in post 23, but would be rather circumspect about the bigger story of the West Yorks.

Phil (PJA)

[Black Maria]

According to Captain Needham's account he saw the Germans raise White handkerchiefs tied to rifles from their trenches in front and to the left of his position and he shouted

to his men to cease firing . After this he saw two or three hundred Germans moving from their trenches towards A Company, many with White flags attached to their rifles and

many with their hands up after which they stood apparently conversing with the British . All of a sudden a burst of heavy fire broke out and he saw the men of A Company engaged

in hand to hand fighting with the Germans. All this time the Germans in front of his position remained with their White flags and hands up, just as he had decided to reopen fire

on them he saw Captain Savage of D Coy and Lieutenant Dimmer ( 60th Rifles) walk through the left of C Coy on up to the German trench in front of him. They stayed there

talking for five minutes then started walking back , after they had got half way back the Germans opened fire on them and Savage was shot in the back and killed, Dimmer

managed to crawl back to the British lines. As soon as Dimmer had arrived safely back they reopened fire on the Germans and shortly after a machine gun of the Queens

opened up against the Germans in front of A Coy who bolted back to their own trenches. A quarter of an hour later he again saw White flags being raised from the German

trenches but this time ignored them. He also includes an account by 2nd Lieut Burlton of A Coy who tried to take the German surrender only to be told that they wished him

to surrender. It seems that the Germans initially may have intended to surrender but on seeing how few men opposed them changed their minds and attacked the British.

[lostinspace]

In looking at the two units involved (Northants and West Yorks) it seems that the incidents happened in the same general location and three days apart. Battalions of 18 Bde. (6 Div.) relieved battalions of the 2 Bde. (1 Div.) on the 19th/20th September, the Short History of the 6th Division (page 3) says: 'The front taken over ran diagonally from north-east to south-west along the high ground just south of the Chemin des Dames to the north and north-east of Troyon. The East Yorks on the left relieved in daylight on the 19th September the D.L.I., and the West Yorks during the night of the 19/20th September. The West Yorks had two companies in front trenches, one company echeloned in right rear and one company in support. The Sherwood Foresters were in reserve.' The 2 Bde. units were the 2nd Royal Sussex, 1st Loyal North Lancs, 1st Northants and 2nd K.R.R.C., the 2nd Royal Sussex apparently remained close enough to the West Yorks to reinforce them with three companies twice during the day (according to their war diary). This was a critical sector for both sides as previously units of 1 Division had reached the sugar factory and the Chemin des Dames before being pushed back by German counterattacks; so given the situation and the proximity of the opposing lines I don't think a ruse de guerre can be ruled out. I'll take a look at the histories of the other units involved and see if I can find anything else.

Dave

[phil andrade]

An interesting German perspective on this sort of thing in reverse......

From Jack Sheldon's THE GERMAN ARMY ON THE SOMME 1914-1916, page 78, a communication from HQ XIV Reserve Corps, dated 5th August 1915, advising as to what might be expected from British soldiers :

The British companies are in the habit of carrying white flags with them. These they raise when they believe that they are no longer able to hold out. Our troops have earlier been taken in by this. They have launched themselves forward, in order to take prisoners, and have suffered heavy casualties from adjoining British companies who have not shown a white flag. In battle, therefore, no notice is to be taken of isolated enemy signals of surrender.

During certain attacks, large numbers of British soldiers have approached our trenches, apparently unarmed, as though they were going to come over to us. These have been mostly coloured soldiers, such as Indians, and they have been received as deserters. Once they were in the trenches, they began suddenly to continue the attack with grenades and knives, whilst other British infantry arrived to consolidate the position.

Another communication, four days later, was issued to IR 180 :

The British soldier is well known as a daring and brave man, whom we therefore do not want to underestimate. The British soldier only pretends to surrender ( even if he has already been wounded ) in order to take the next opportunity to stab his opponent to death with a knife.

What a bunch of underhand cads !

Phil (PJA)

[Black Maria]

Captain J.G.W Hyndson of the 1st Loyal North Lancs ( author of 'From Mons to the First battle of Ypres') who at the time was a 2nd Lieut recorded this episode in his

diary for Sept 16th 1914 , " A rather curious thing happened during the action. Both sides ceased fire and stood up , each thinking the other wished to surrender.

Captain Watson , Queens Regt . who was acting Brigade Major, galloped out to them to accept this surrender, but on getting up close to the officer in command was

informed that they thought we wanted to, He turned round and came away, being fired at but not hurt, and the fight was resumed. We who had been watching the

whole thing opened up a M.G on the enemy with visible results ". In his book he describes the incident as " unique in the annals of warfare ".

In his diary he also described the 18th Brigade incident , " It turned out the 18th Brigade were caught unprepared by the Germans, who pretending they wished to

surrender, surrounded and caught most of them. The plan was, a line of unarmed men came in front and were followed by a crowd of armed Germans. Before the

unfortunate 18th Brigade were able to make out what was the matter , the Germans were among them shooting all with arms in their hands and taking others prisoners".

[lostinspace]

A lot of strange activities on the 20th it seems. When Towsey moved D Coy. of the West Yorkshires to protect the flank after the first French withdrawal, there was a firefight with the French troops which is barely mentioned in their history; here are some excerpts from Jerry Murland's book "Battle on the Aisne 1914", page 156, private Charles Rainbird of D Coy.: "As dawn was breaking this morning, there occurred one of those hellish mistakes which occur in every war. We saw through the half light a large body of men evidently retiring on our right. Our Colonel ordered my Company 'D' to swing round so as to cover their retirement if they should prove to be allies. After advancing about 200 yards we saw they were allies (Zouaves) when, to our horror they suddenly turned and opened fire on us. Oh God, it was awful, every one of us exposed to a raking fire and no cover; they had evidently taken us for the enemy. My mates were falling all over the place and there was 37 killed in less than two minutes. Naturally our boys opened fire on them, in spite of the CO's shout of 'Don't fire!' I dropped a fellow as he was in the act of firing, then we received the order to retire." To add to all the confusion, in the afternoon, during the second German attack, a heavy rainstorm moved into the area and the West Yorks' rifles began to jam.
Mr. Murland doesn't seem to give much credence to the "white flag" incident as Captain P.H. Lowe (also D Coy. who was wounded and captured that day) doesn't mention it in his account, although the author adds "which is not to say it did not occur." There is also another quote from Douglas Haig, page 161: "This is the worst incident of which I have heard during the campaign. I do not know Lt. Col. Towsey but in view of the high character which he holds it may be well to give him another chance , but I recommend that he and his battalion be strongly rebuked and that they are told that it rests with them to regain the good name and reputation which our infantry holds, and which they may have by their conduct on the 20th forfeited."

Dave

[Guest]

Picking this up again - there is no mention in the "Journal de Marche" of the 1st Regiment of the Tirailleurs algériens of any friendly fire incidents. It simply reports that the 2nd and 3 rd battalions were in the front line with the 1 battallion in reserve near Paissy. According to the records the 2 bat was actually on the Chemin des Dames west of the crossroads with the rd. between Paissy and Ailles, with the the 3rd bat to its east. The 3rd bat came under heavy fire and retired first towards Pargan at 0300h, which was behind the British front lines occupied by the West Yorks. The 2nd bat held out until 1400h but was then forced to retire towards the ravines by Paissy.

By a process of deduction it seems therefore that Germans got into the flanks of the 2 bat after the withdrawal of the 3rd bat which caused chaos and led to the withdrawal of the 3rd bat thus exposing the flank of the West Yorks. One can only imagine the chaos ensuing with Germans, Algerians and Brits all mixed up in hilly woodland.

 

Pity no German records can be found

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Matt,

 

Chaos indeed. If you check the JMO of 75e Brigade, you'll see the commanding general was wounded, along with several other etat-major staff too, which can't have helped.

 

Steve