Underhand tactics on the Aisne?

[Andrew Hesketh]

The scene:

20 September 1914, Chemin des Dames, Battle of the Aisne. Two companies of the 2nd Sherwood Foresters, 18th Brigade, 6th Division, in Brigade reserve about half a mile behind the front line trenches, with a clear view. Two Foresters, separately, wrote home later that they saw Germans approaching trenches occupied by the 1st West Yorkshires, 1st East Yorkshires and 2nd DLI at about mid-day or early afternoon, brandishing the white flag of surrender. The Germans were, according to my research, of the VII Reserve Corps, and probably the 25th Landwehr Regiment. And, according to my sources below, they pulled a dastardly trick that a local newspaper were pleased to report under the anti-German headline 'Germans Nothing but Dirty Cowards’.

Quote 1: “….some of our troops were standing on a hill watching shells burst in the distance. Suddenly they cried, ‘Look! There are hundred of Germans surrendering’. We rushed up to look and there were great bunches of Germans carrying the white flag moving towards the West Yorkshire’s. Of course [the] Yorkshire’s got out of their trenches to accept them as prisoners, but no sooner had they risen to their feet than the Germans lay down and peppered them with bullets, killing a good few of them”.

Quote 2: “It appears the Germans had shown the white flag, and when our troops had risen to bring them in they cut them down with a murderous fire…”.

The questions:

1: Was it the 25th Landwehr Regiment attacking here?

2: Can anyone confirm / disprove this assertion of the white flag ruse?

3: My suspicion is that our two observers (the second of whom I have doubts about regarding his accuracy for a variety of reasons I won't go into here) may have seen the German force brandishing a regimental banner. I'm no expert at all on German regimental colours, but I am imagining that the two Brits may have mistook a predominantly white flag for an actual white flag. So.....does anybody know if German units went into action with colours flying at this early stage of the war and, if so, what colour the flag of the 25th Landwehr was?

Whilst I'm here, and on about this particular sector and day, would anyone know which Moroccan unit was the left unit of the French force to 6th Division's immediate right? (if you can follow that!)

Am I just too demanding? Or do I have great faith in the bountiful knowledge of forumites (or Baker Pals as now seems to be the accepted term)?

Thanks,

Andrew

[Bob Coulson]

British Battalions 1914 quotes the war diary of the 1st West Yorks.

"A man came back from the front line and reported that the forward companies had been captured. The enemy had come forward under a white flag. When the Sherwood Foresters went out to meet them they were surrounded and fired upon."

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Andrew

I have just had a look at the Official History of the War, part of it dealing with the Battle of the Aisne is on-line at

it makes no mention of the Germans using white flags.

[egbert]

Andrew,

I cannot comment on this particular LIR 25, but I may convey some general observations with respect to regimental flags in German units.

First: the regimental flags were considered "holy" at least for sure in 1914. An attack was ALWAYS brought forward with the regimental flag bearer in front row. I may quote from regimental history of IR 49, at the occasion of attack on Le Loges, 11Oct 1914: "..the flag of the Bn (III. Bn) which was carried in very frontline of the (German) attackers by Sgt Baehr was put into danger of being captured, after he was wounded. He passed the flag to his Company CO, 1st Lt Beyer, who was killed shortly thereafter by a deadly bullet. The flag goes down with him. Having seen this, 1st Lt Burgsdorff grabbed the torn and rugged holy flag, to rejoin -at the head of his Company- the III. Bn advance. After a few steps only, he fell, hit by a mortal bullet, burying the flag underneath him. After him, several other Sergeants grabbed the flag, only to meet the same fate..." . So far the regimental history.

Second: the flag of IR 49 was mostly bright WHITE with a golden crown and eagle which from distance cannot be recognized….

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Andrew, In regard to the location where the 25th Landwehr Regiment fought I checked my records and it appears they were engaged in the vicinity of Cotes de Meuse, Champlon and Les Eparges. I have not checked the maps yet but I believe these are in the Verdun area. So it is very possible the information regarding this unit is incorrect.

I also know of two other regiments, the 40th Reserve and the 111th Reserve who carried battalioncolors into action on 8 October near Becourt, one flag returned and the second was hidden inside Becourt Wood until after the war when it was recovered by a German POW on cleanup duty and then later returned to Germany.

The units of the 26th Reserve Division carried their colors into action several times before this period according to regimental accounts. After the fighting at Becourt the regiments were forbidden to carry flags into action.

Ralph

[stevenbecker]

The French Histories also mention the capture of unit flags during these early battles. Many Landwher flags had as a backing the colour white.

Stories such as the use of white flags and shooting officers or men after they had surrendered went on all through the war.

I have a number story's of so called Germans shooting after they had surendered. I am still to confirm any where true.

These story's still are mentioned in many books like "the Germans crixifing babies to barn walls in Belgum".

The Propergander of the war still needs to be looked at in some detail as this was a major influence on the men at the time.

S.B

[AOK4]

Hello,

Could you give me an exact location where this happened, I need an exact place in order to find out which unit was there.

If you are interested to see a few of these regimental and battalion flags, have a look here.

Regards,

Jan

[kevin]

From the West Yorkshire Regiment in the Great War

At about 1.30pm on the 20th sept 1914, a man ran back from the firing line and reported the companies in front had been captured and the Germans were advancing.From infomation collected it is certain that the Germans advanced under cover of a white flag on the right flank, when our men went out to meet them they were surrounded and heavily fired on. Many were killed (approx 80 o/r,s),a few escaped and 8 officers and 436 o/r,s were captured.

It then goes on to state that the whole affair was a mystery, but it was evident the lost companies had been first tricked and then shot down or taken prisoners.

All i have about the French unit is that a Regiment of Tireulleurs d'Afrique was the left flank of the French Fifth Army.

The infomation i have on postion is that the 1st West Yorks firing line was just south of Chemin des Dames,from west to east.

Regards Kevin

[Annette Burgoyne]

This is from the Offical History, I hope it does not break copyright, if it does Chris, then delete this post please.

Between noon and 1 P.M. the enemy delivered a third attack under cover of a heavy storm of rain, and once again the Moroceans fell back. Once again Lieut.-Colonel Towsey threw out a company eastward to protect his right, at the same time asking help from the 2nd Cavalry Brigade at Paissy. But before this could come, the enemy, having advanced into the gap left by the Moroccans, enfiladed and, after inflicting heavy casualties, charged and captured the remnants of the right company of the West Yorkshire. Within half an hour, working down the line, the Germans were in occupation of the entire front trenches of the battalion and had swept what remained of two more companies into captivity. The officer commanding led forward his one remaining company to retrieve the situation, but being met by heavy fire on front and right flank, whereby he himself was wounded, the survivors fell back on the cavalry at Paissy.

The disaster to the West Yorkshire laid open the flank of the Durham L.I. who were next on their left, and exposed them to so destructive an enfilade fire that the East Yorkshire, on the left of the D.L.I., were sent to relieve them by a counter-attack. No sooner, however, did they leave their trenches than they were beaten back to them by overwhelming shrapnel and machine-gun fire.

[Paul Reed]

This is from the Offical History, I hope it does not break copyright, if it does Chris, then delete this post please.

Just out of interest to you and everyone, publishers consider quotes of this type 'fair usage' and do not contravene copyright, as long as you quote the source... I believe that in any case the OH is out of copyright?

[Tom Morgan]

To add a further note of correctness - the white flag was not a sign of surrender, but an "invitation to parley" that is, an invitation to cease fire and talk. (Of course, the talk which followed might concern the possibility of surrender, but the side which instigated the talk might well be urging the other side to surrender!)

The usual method of using the white flag was to wave it to attract the enemy's attention and then, firing having ceased, it was usual for one or two unarmed soldiers to stand up, walk to a suitable half-way point and wait for someone to come out from the other side. I'm sure we've all read accounts where exactly this kind of thing happened.

Large numbers of armed men climbing out of their trenches with a white flag would have been treated with a lot of suspicion, I think, especially in 1914, when the meaning of the white flag was clearly understood.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Thanks Paul, glad I have not contravene any copyright.

Annette

[Terry Denham]

Be careful about copyright as 'Crown Copyright' lasts longer than normal copyright - 100 years I seem to remember.

[AOK4]

It seems that the VII. Reservekorps (14. Reserve-Division) was indeed on the other side. Other units engaged between the French 5th Army and the BEF were the 25. Landwehr-Brigade and the 63. Infanterie-Brigade (the Germans liked to attack between the English and the French, it offered sometimes interesting opportunities becaue the Anglo-French military coordination wasn't what it was by the end of the war).

The 63. Infanterie-Division (saxon) was in fact a part of the 32. Infanterie-Division and was made up of Infanterie-Regiment 102 and 103. The 25. (gemischte) Landwehr-Brigade was an independent unit which consisted of Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 13 and 15, 1. Landwehr-Eskadron VII. Armeekorps and Landsturm-Batterie VII. Armeekorps.

I'll check my unit histories now and will report back if I find something.

Regards,

Jan

[Terry_Reeves]

The following is from Field Service Regulations Part 2 -Organisation and Administration 1909, reprinted with ammendments to October 1914:

Flags of Truce

1. Non-hostile communications between belligerents must be conducted with scrupulous good faith. There are usually commenced by a flag of truce.

2. An individual is considered as being the bearer of a flag of truce who is authorised by one of the beligerents to enter into communication with the other, and who comes with a white flag. He has a right to inviolability, as have also the trumpeter, bugler, or drummer, the flag bearer, and the interpreter who may accompany him.

3. The commander to whom the bearer of a flag of truce is sent, is not obliged to receive him in all circumstances. He can take all neccessary steps to prevent the bearer of the flag of truce from taking advantage of his mission to obtain information. The bearer of a flag of truce, also the trumpeter a, bugler or drummer, the flag bearer and the interpreter, may, for instance be blindfolded. The commander has the right to detain temporarily an envoy who attempts to abuse his position. The bearer of a flag of truce loses his rights of inviolability if it is proved beyond doubt that he has taken advantage of his privieged position to instigate or commit an act of treachery.

4. The recognition of a white flag in an enemy's position or lines is not obligatory on a commander. It should be disregarded in cases where movement of troops or materials are carried out under its protection, and when there is reason to believe that it has been displayed without the authority of the responsible commander.

With regard to Crown copyright at least, go the HMSO website which gives guidance on the subject. The rights to reproduction of many areas of Crown publications have been waived in recent years, subject to certain guidlines.

Terry Reeves

[Andrew Hesketh]

"Am I just too demanding? Or do I have great faith in the bountiful knowledge of forumites (or Baker Pals as now seems to be the accepted term)?"

Answer: I have great faith in the bountiful knowledge of forumites!

Thank you all so much for the information so far, which is way beyond even my more optimistic hopes. I hope that this interruption to thank you all does not stop this thread dead in it's tracks - it's going so well. But I must say thanks to each of you for the time, thought, research and effort that you've put in for me - you have all added something very useful.

Jan, if you come across anything regarding the 25th Landwehr Brigade I would be most grateful for the details.

Thanks again,

Andrew

[AOK4]

Andrew,

Unfortunately there are no regimental histories about the 25. Landwehr-Brigade and in the history of the VII. Corps there is nothing about either the VII. Reservekorps nor the 25. Landwehr-Brigade on 20.09.1914.

Jan

[Andrew Hesketh]

Shame. But thanks for checking Jan.

[ianw]

Interesting to note from Jan's link just how many of the flags had a white background (not surprising I suppose since I presume the base cloth colour would be white). At a distance such a flag , stained by battle , could perhaps be interpreted as a white flag.

In battle , the surrender of the enemy is perhaps the optimum situation ,so one can understand how wishful thinking could interprete a mostly white battle standard as a white flag.

[Guest Walkington Matt]

Just picked this train of comments up as I was reseaching my Grandfather's war experiences.

He was Sgt C.V.Westcott of the the 1st Bn West Yorks and was captured during this very action and his brother killed by machine gun fire when coming up to the front line in support . My father claims his father told him many years after the event of this ruse by the Germans and he also claimed that some British troops were killed by friendly fire from the French on his right who mistook the Khaki uniforms for German.

It would interesting to find the German records of this action and indeed to find the French records if they still exist

Walkington Matt

[SteveMarsdin]

Just picked this train of comments up as I was reseaching my Grandfather's war experiences.

Hi Matt,

Forum member Jerry Murland has written several books on the Aisne (1914). http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=murland+aisne+&rh=n%3A266239%2Ck%3Amurland+aisne+

If you start a new topic with the name of your grandfather and the Battle of the Aisne 1914, I'm sure he, or someone else, will be able to help. I'll have a look in the British Official History and try and find the French unit(s) next to the West Yorks, the French Government site is superb (and free !) http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/article.php?larub=2&titre=journaux-des-unites-engagees-dans-la-premiere-guerre-mondiale and once you know the units you'll find your way around it quickly.

PS. It seems a long time since we first discussed this at Vicky's wedding !!!

Steve

[SteveMarsdin]

Matt,

I think the adjoining French units were part of 76e Brigade, 38e Division, 18e Corps, 5e Army. This is the JMO (War diary) of that brigade:

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=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#uielem_move=-186%2C-1212&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=1&uielem_zoom=188

Steve

[phil andrade]

What are we to make of an account that chronicles a virtually identical - or very similar - account, but attributes the experience to a different unit on a different date ?

I allude here to Conan Doyle's history THE BRITISH CAMPAIGN IN FRANCE AND FLANDERS 1914, pages 180 to 181.

He depicts, in detail, the fate of a company of the 1st Northamptons on the 17h September.

Captain Savage, of B Company, along with Lieutenant Dimmer, approached a party of Germans who had hoisted a white flag.

Dimmer saw the atrocious ruse for what it was, and threw himself to the ground, shouting " For God's sake get down."

Captain Savage remained standing and was riddled with bullets, along with many of the Northamptons, including Lieutenant Gordon.

Should we interpret this as authentication of German behaviour that was becoming more general ; or as a " fishy" story that suggests propaganda?

Phil (PJA)

[SteveMarsdin]

Matt,

This map, from the French Official History, confirms the French units to the right (east) of the British line:

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YToxMDp7czoxMDoidHlwZV9mb25kcyI7czo3OiJhcmtvX2lyIjtzOjg6ImltZ190eXBlIjtzOjc6Inpvb21pZnkiO3M6NDoicmVmMCI7czozOiIyNDkiO3M6NDoicmVmMSI7czoyOiIyNCI7czo0OiJyZWYyIjtpOjI1ODtzOjQ6InJlZjMiO3M6NTI6IjFHTS9BRkdHL2NhcnRlcy9TSERCR19RX2luNC0wMDAwMjMtMDEtNC1DXzAwMTBfMi5KUEciO3M6NDoicmVmNCI7czo1MjoiMUdNL0FGR0cvY2FydGVzL1NIREJHX1FfaW40LTAwMDAyMy0wMS00LUNfMDAxMF8yLkpQRyI7czoxODoiaWRfYXJrX2VhZF9mYW1pbGxlIjtpOjExO3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoomifyInfos=2798.4103889236094%2C2196.8655833854145%2C0.15229232864275988&uielem_zoom=0

and the narrative of that Official History can be found (around) here:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6486257q/f94.item.r=18e.zoom

Steve

[Guest Walkington Matt]

Steve

Many thanks for the info

The French official record mentions nothing whatsoever of any retreat!

PS just noticed my Great Uncle and my Grandfather had consecutive serial numbers 8127 & 8128 respectively. This means they must have joined the army together. It makes it all the more poignant that they were parted on the same day.

Matt