Ist Armoured Motor Battery, MGCM in East Africa

[Philip Walker]

I am researching the men of the Hejaz Armoured Car Company, and would be interested to hear from RPJ about his wife's grandfather, R P Jones and also about George Westwater.

[david murdoch]

On 15/01/2014 at 06:25, mcassell said:

 

I have a copy of a manual produced by Sir John Willoughby in December 1915 at Bisley. It gives the recommended establishment of 1AMB as:

4 Armoured Cars; 2 1 ton lorries; 1 Workshop lorry, 6-8 Box body Fords; 2 water cars; 55 to 62 motorcycles; 103 bicycles.

7 to 8 officers; 7 Staff NCOs; 5 to 6 Sergeants; 7 Corporals; 32 drivers (Privates); 31 motorcyclists (Privates); 15 scouts and messengers (privates); 7 Fitters; 1 searchlight operator; 7 to 8 batmen. Total personnel: 119 to 129 all ranks.

Whether Willoughby got this establishment is another question.

Just found this great photo of 1st A.M.B lined up in parade order probably January 1916. This was published in "The Motorcycle" issue 24/2/1916. Photo taken prior to the unit going overseas. You can see clearly they were issued their tropical kit  in the UK. I did a head count and make  at least 120. If they embarked on H.M.T. "Huntsgreen" at Devonport on 7th February 1916, should be an shipping  inventory list for the unit  - usually these list officers by name and the quantity of NCOs/other ranks plus the equipment. Looks like he got a good part of his "wish list"

 

[BSM]

David, that is a very nice image. Certainly and succinctly answers the initial question. Thanks for sharing.....wonder how many more gems such as this turn up before the Centenary comes to a close?......cheers...Rod

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Just found this great photo of 1st A.M.B lined up in parade order probably January 1916. This was published in "The Motorcycle" issue 24/2/1916. Photo taken prior to the unit going overseas. You can see clearly they were issued their tropical kit  in the UK. I did a head count and make  at least 120. If they embarked on H.M.T. "Huntsgreen" at Devonport on 7th February 1916, should be an shipping  inventory list for the unit  - usually these list officers by name and the quantity of NCOs/other ranks plus the equipment. Looks like he got a good part of his "wish list"

 

The shipping record should be found in WO 25/3544 at TNA Kew.

best Paul

Edited 3 July , 2017 by pjwmacro

[curatorgfm]

On 1/14/2014 at 23:37, mcassell said:

Very glad the information was useful. The officers have been a conundrum but the following appears to be most of them (I will entertain any corrections): Apart from Willoughby there are mentioned in 1 AMB War Diary:

Lt. S.S.G. Chivers ASC

2Lt. W. Goldsack MGC

Lt. A.J. Bamford

2Lt C.H. Hills MGC (ceased to belong to Corps same day Willoughby resigned 22 August 1917)

Lt. F.J. Adams MGC

Captain Brown(e) ASC

I had forgotten about Rood and Draper, the latter later serving with Lawrence's Hedjaz battery. There are a few casualties to MGC in 1 AMB :

1740 Gunner William Naylor Dd. 25 April 1916

2221 Gunner Harold Thistlewhite Dd. 2 May 1916

1911 Gunner James Watson Dd.29 June 1916

1817 Gunner Archie Cameron Dd.8 May 1917

The following are speculative as belonging to 1 AMB:

2037 Gunner George Westwater

2063 Corporal Percy E. North

141 Gunner Roy Wallace

1112 Gunner Percy Gerken

1548 Gunner A. Burden

2347 Battery Sergeant Major Robert Tippot Kerris Ap-Thomas (MID Smut's 22 November 1916)

 

Hi everyone! I'm the curator at Glencoe Folk Museum and am researching Gunner Archie Cameron 1817 (mentioned above) as we have Next of Kin Memorial Plaques for both him and his brother Angus in our collection. He was born in Kilmallie and died from Blackwater Fever in East Africa on 8th May 1917. I wonder if anyone could give me any more information, or point me in the right direction? For example, any mention of him in the war diary (long shot, I know!). I would love to find a photograph but, again, unlikely. Any info or suggestions would be very much appreciated! 

Best wishes, 

Catriona

[david murdoch]

Catriona.

By his service number his enlistment date was on or a day or two before 15/7/1915, and Soldiers Died gives him as enlisting at Perth. Given the time he enlisted, he was enlisting into the Motor Machine Gun Service, who were actively "on tour" in Scotland recruiting in several cities. I don't see him mentioned by name in the lists often published in "The Motorcycle" in the couple of weeks following but those are not definitive. The chap next to him on my list Charles Ferguson Blair 1816 was from Greenock and noted as enlisting in Glasgow. So possibly means they received their service numbers as part of a batch of recruits from throughout Scotland once they arrived at Bisley. C.F. Blair was also in 1st AMB, but was killed in action with 6th MMG Battery in France in September 1918.

It's most likely from his enlistment time he had an interest in motorcycles (due to being before MGC and the armoured cars) and would probably have been intending to end up in a Motor Machine Gun battery. After initial training may have been assigned to one of the ones which were forming later in 1915, but then cancelled when MGC took over. Given the wide range of service numbers, 1st AMB was likely put together from  a mix of available personnel from the training pool, and from other batteries or batteries who's planned formation was cancelled.

I see both these men's death registration on Scotlands People. Service returns for Scots who had died outside Scotland. This gives his age as being 28, place of death and cause of death There are several others on this page died in East Africa also likely members of 1st A.M.B. Useful to confirm actual causes of death for those listed as "died" and not killed in action or died of wounds. Going by his given age would make him born around 1889, but not seeing a birth register for him in Kilmallie for this year. Closest there is -  one for 1886 and two for 1887 but both those have middle names. 

 

Edited 30 November , 2017 by david murdoch

[curatorgfm]

Hi David! Thanks for this, the information about the recruitment is really interesting. I had noticed that one of the other soldiers had the service number before Archie Cameron, though I wasn't sure if that meant they had enlisted together or what, but it makes sense that they were all given numbers after enlistment. Interesting to note that he would have been attracted by the motorbikes as well. Is there somewhere that I could see a list of campaigns/battles that the regiment took part in?

 

 Sorry I should have clarified that I already have a lot of his family background - it is really his wartime career I am trying to find out more about! He was born Archibald Clark Cameron in 1887 to John and Margaret Cameron. I have him in the 1891 Census (as Archie Clark) at age 3 and in 1901 (as "Archbald") aged 12. We didn't have any information at all about the Death Pennies other than the soldiers' names as they were discovered in somebody's attic in Glencoe, so it has been quite a trawl working backwards and figuring out who they were! 

 

Thanks again, 

Catriona

[pjwmacro]

23 hours ago, curatorgfm said:

I would love to find a photograph but, again, unlikely. Any info or suggestions would be very much appreciated! 

Catriona

I assume you have tried local papers for a death announcement/photo?

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

Paul. I had a look for him but did not find anything. He appears to have served as Archie Cameron rather than Archibald Cameron So I'd take it that was how he was known. I'll search again with possible variations also if he was known locally as Archie or Archibald Clark.

Catriona.

No sign of his service record, but by his joining the MMGS when he did, can discount that he served anywhere else prior to that. Hew would be a direct enlistment. As he did not gain a 14-15 Star, he only saw active/overseas service from 1916. Given that 1st A.M.B left UK for Africa on 7th February 1916, this is probably the only unit he served with. He's likely in the battery photo posted further back.

Back to his enlistment - need to find him on the 1911 Census, as by then he would be 22 so of working age, and his profession may give a clue. Not seeing a clear matches for him but depends how he gave his name. There's only a couple of Archies and Archibalds the right age on the census for the whole of Scotland. He was possibly living away from his family by then for work. If he was living in his home area when he enlisted he travelled a fair distance  to enlist, and specifically into the MMGS. I've found one or two others from quite out of the way Scottish places where the majority around them were enlisting into local regiments. So he was either enlisting having seen the ads in The Motorcycle or one of the Scottish newspapers who ran articles and ads right at the time he enlisted. He must have had or had an interest in motorcycles, and would have to pass general service medical and the specific requirements to join MMGS. I have seen from the Scottish recruits  they appear to have short listed, and then issued rail warrants to those "pre selected" to travel down to England. There they would have an interview with Geoffrey Smith - editor of The Motorcycle. He basically hand picked members of the MMGS. As well as an ability to ride a motorcycle, they also had to demonstrate knowledge of motorcycle mechanics and the ability to carry out running repairs. Once approved the recruits were sent on to Bisley to the training centre. The group of service numbers up an down from his contains several obviously Scottish names, so can check their backgrounds to see if any are from his area - which could indicate joining up with a mate. There (going by the names) a Scottish contingent in 1st A.M.B, and among the MMGS in general was a fairly high proportion of Scots given they were recruiting from the whole of the UK. 

[david murdoch]

Found this very clear photo of one of 1st A.M.B's  Leyland armoured trucks. This taken at Leyland sometime in 1915

Edited 20 July , 2020 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

17 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Found this very clear photo of one of 1st A.M.B's  Layland armoured trucks. This taken at Layland sometime in 1915

Great photo. Where is Layland?

[david murdoch]

On 02/12/2017 at 13:45, pjwmacro said:

Great photo. Where is Layland?

In Lancashire  - bit south of Preston. Back then it was the Leyland Motor Company.  I found another small image of them at the factory. On the web there is a colourised image of them on the road in the UK. The blog owner has noted they were in Langwathby Cumbria doing field trials.

 

Edited 20 July , 2020 by david murdoch

[Old Owl]

On 02/12/2017 at 18:13, david murdoch said:

In Lancashire  - bit south of Preston. Back then it was the Layland Motor Company.  I found another small image of them at the factory. On the web there is a colourised image of them on the road in the UK. The blog owner has noted they were in Langwathby Cumbria doing field trials.

 

 

Sorry for being pedantic--but shouldn't it be Leyland as per the photo?

[curatorgfm]

On 12/1/2017 at 21:35, david murdoch said:

Paul. I had a look for him but did not find anything. He appears to have served as Archie Cameron rather than Archibald Cameron So I'd take it that was how he was known. I'll search again with possible variations also if he was known locally as Archie or Archibald Clark.

Catriona.

No sign of his service record, but by his joining the MMGS when he did, can discount that he served anywhere else prior to that. Hew would be a direct enlistment. As he did not gain a 14-15 Star, he only saw active/overseas service from 1916. Given that 1st A.M.B left UK for Africa on 7th February 1916, this is probably the only unit he served with. He's likely in the battery photo posted further back.

Back to his enlistment - need to find him on the 1911 Census, as by then he would be 22 so of working age, and his profession may give a clue. Not seeing a clear matches for him but depends how he gave his name. There's only a couple of Archies and Archibalds the right age on the census for the whole of Scotland. He was possibly living away from his family by then for work. If he was living in his home area when he enlisted he travelled a fair distance  to enlist, and specifically into the MMGS. I've found one or two others from quite out of the way Scottish places where the majority around them were enlisting into local regiments. So he was either enlisting having seen the ads in The Motorcycle or one of the Scottish newspapers who ran articles and ads right at the time he enlisted. He must have had or had an interest in motorcycles, and would have to pass general service medical and the specific requirements to join MMGS. I have seen from the Scottish recruits  they appear to have short listed, and then issued rail warrants to those "pre selected" to travel down to England. There they would have an interview with Geoffrey Smith - editor of The Motorcycle. He basically hand picked members of the MMGS. As well as an ability to ride a motorcycle, they also had to demonstrate knowledge of motorcycle mechanics and the ability to carry out running repairs. Once approved the recruits were sent on to Bisley to the training centre. The group of service numbers up an down from his contains several obviously Scottish names, so can check their backgrounds to see if any are from his area - which could indicate joining up with a mate. There (going by the names) a Scottish contingent in 1st A.M.B, and among the MMGS in general was a fairly high proportion of Scots given they were recruiting from the whole of the UK. 

David,

 

Thanks for the info, this is fascinating. I was wondering if an ability to ride/knowledge of motorcycles was a requirement and it seems like it was quite a difficult regiment to get into! I will certainly look into the other Scottish men in the MMGS and see if any are from a nearby area. None of the other soldiers on the Kilmallie War Memorial were in the same regiment, but perhaps if he was living near Perth at the time he enlisted, he may have joined up with friend from there. Do you know what the copyright info for the photo of the 1st A.M.B might be? If I can't get a photo of Archie himself that would be an interesting alternative!

 

I've been struggling to find him in the 1911 census as well. It is likely as you say that he was living away - he was from a family of shepherds and had at least 2 older brothers who took over from their father, so he probably had to move away for work. I will keep digging! 

 

Thanks so much for your help.

Catriona

[david murdoch]

15 hours ago, Old Owl said:

 

Sorry for being pedantic--but shouldn't it be Leyland as per the photo?

oops - not a typo but my auto spell check changing it every time - it is Leyland as in the place name. 

[djbrown]

Obviously this thread has not seen any activity for some time but should this be of any use to anyone; here are photographs of 1st AMB before leaving the UK. One has been shown already but this is a different version which may show faces more clearly for anyone trying to identify individuals. My grandfather was in 1st AMB before somehow joining the 19th MMG Battery.

I also have a copy of this list of names from 1st AMB which may hopefully be of help to someone...

[pjwmacro]

44 minutes ago, djbrown said:

also have a copy of this list of names from 1st AMB which may hopefully be of help to someone

Great photos - thanks for sharing- and for the list of names  - especially interesting.  I am sure a number will be familiar to @david murdoch.

Best, Paul 

[djbrown]

Ive no idea where that list originates but it I'm assuming it's by one of the men pictured as they use informal christian names as gf is referred to as Jimmy. I really like the "opposite the post office in Woking" reference!

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

Great photos - thanks for sharing- and for the list of names  - especially interesting.  I am sure a number will be familiar to @david murdoch.

Best, Paul 

Yes I'll check the list against my spreadsheet. Quite a large number of Scots in this one. 

[david murdoch]

 

2044    Gunner Henry McLauchlan

1919   Acting  Corporal James D. Paton

1663   Gunner William Lowis

807    Gunner Robert Robertson Hay  (possible)  Served with 19^th MMG

1996  Gunner James  McMorran  Served with 19^th MMG

James Davidson

1928  Gunner John Hakett

1946  Gunner Peter Hynd

Harold Brown

 2013  Gunner David H. Aitken

2422  Gunner  David Fairbairn

1738  Gunner Charles Cochrane

2063  Corporal Percy Escott North

Sjt Major Chapell

David Laing

John”Jock” Miles

2099  A/Corporal Cecil Rothwell

1960  A/Corporal Harold Taylor

2081 Gunner Robert Ernest French

1528  Gunner George Leishman