British felt hat(slouch) WW1.Help me find me a photo please

[pukman]

Hopefully there are some head wear collectors out there that can help me in finding a photo of an actual example of British felt hat(slouch) that was worn in tropical climates in WW1,as in campaigns in Mesopotamia ,Salonika and Palestine .

The part I'm most interested in seeing is the pugaree .A clear photo of which is proving elusive

The reason I ask is that I have bought a WW1 slouch that was worn by a New Zealand Trooper in Palestine in WW1.It has a non standard New Zealand pugaree on it ,and I need to know if its British type .

Google doesn't seem to come up with any thing other than WW2 British felt/slouch hats.

I would appreciate any help with my research .

Regards Iain D

[pukman]

I'm beginning to think that the British felt hat (slouch/bush) as worn by British troops in WW1 is either very rare ,or there has not been a lot of research done into it !!!!!

However my quest continues .Any help in my quest is much appreciated

Regards Iain

[squirrel]

A Forum search on Slouch Hat might bring up a few threads.

[pukman]

A Forum search on Slouch Hat might bring up a few threads.

Thanks for that. Still yet to find any good shots, especially of the puggarre on the British felt hat

Edited 10 January , 2014 by pukman

[Glengarry1950]

Hi Ian,

In the Dress Regulation 1900 this type of Headdress is know as a Field Cap, I have illustrations of it with a cap badge and chin strap down also in its unfolded state, so try searching under British Army Field Cap.

Hiram

[T8HANTS]

A standard helmet pugaree should be made out of light muslin between 6" to 8" wide with raw edges. It is then folded edges to middle, and folded again to give a strip either one and half or two inches wide, with no raw edge visible. The pugaree which should be about 10 yards long if memory serves, is then wound around the headdress and given a half twist at the front and rear to form the "V" which gives the smart appearance. Start at the back and work from your maximum height down to the rim until you have achieved the thickness required or the number of 'layers' as laid down in standing orders. The end of the pugaree is cut as a long taper and then tucked under the layers again at the rear of the headdress. As WW1 pugarees are much thicker than the token WW2 items, one or two strands of twine in a matching colour may be used to gather the front "V" and prevent slipping. One or two pins are useful to hold the pugaree to the headdress, because if you should drop the hat or helmet, and it lands upside down it will come off. No loose ends, tails or other raw edges should be visible.

That’s how it’s done for a pith helmet; a slouch hat should be no different.

G

[pukman]

Thanks for your interest guys. I guess a picture tells a thousand words so here is my slouch hat as worn by a New Zealand Mounted Rifles trooper in Palestine in WW1 .Now to the untrained eye(such as myself) this looks to be Australian.

However I have been told no Australian slouch hats have press studs ,the felt is lighter weight and have lighter weight puggares

So it is not an Australian one .I have also been told the it is a British slouch hat .The hat itself maybe but but I'm trying to ascertain if the British wore this type of puggare .T8Hants has told me that the puggaree was a folded type (thankyou) ,but if any one can provide an elusive photo of this kind of hat ,It would be most appreciated

regards Iain

New Zealand

[T8HANTS]

No, all I stated was how, if a cloth pugaree it should be fitted, my knowledge of slouch hats is zero - sorry.

G

[T8HANTS]

Just found this, a photo of a British Vet in Salonika WW1, its a full pugaree!

[Andrew Upton]

No, all I stated was how, if a cloth pugaree it should be fitted, my knowledge of slouch hats is zero - sorry.

G

In WW1 use (particularly Australian use), plain pugarees are more common in photos and on surviving originals, but the odd folded one does show up. By WW2 folded pugarees are by far the most common.

Plain:

http://fymeninolduniforms.tumblr.com/post/4771408222/i-wonder-if-the-australians-have-an-equivalent

Folded:

http://www.awm.gov.au/blog/2012/03/28/update-on-the-lost-diggers-photographs/

[pukman]

I guess my main question here pertains to the British army and their wearing of the Felt hat in WW1 .Did the British slouch have a folded puggaree or a plain one like the one on my hat ???????

[Jerry B]

WWI Australian Slouch hats used the hook and eye system, only using press studs during WWII and shortly after.

A Boer war example of an Aussie slouch hat, sorry but like you I struggle to find good pictures of British versions though I just remembered where I might find one and I'll look for it when I have time.

And a WWI Aussie example which has a similar pug to the thread starter.

[Jerry B]

An early British example, notice it has a sewn brim, no vent holes and no press stud.

[Joe Sweeney]

Iain,

This post has one of the better side views of a British Slouch hat (posted by TE)

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=192367&p=1970250

This might not help, but here is some info on when the British pattern sealed the Slouch hat in 1901 as "Service Dress headdress, universal". (there had been lots of types in use in the Boer war but I have not looked at those.

RACD pattern 5048/1901 (introduction)

I read the cryptic hand writing as:

"First Pattern, A soft felt drab colored hat, flat crown and slopping sides with broad brim of Irregular [might say regular] dimensions, [word undecipherable) dent at left side for looping up, fitted with corrugated ventilating inside band"

The added side notes are " and 2 more" --refereeing to 2 more dents snaps.

"Vents # holes all round about 1 inch????"

This was quickly modified by Pattern 5048a/1901

This reduced to numbers of Dent Patent pattern fasteners to 2 one on each side and added the band of worsted lace to match the hat.

I haven't done an exhaustive search the RACD patterns--I know there was on more changer adding a socket to the hat and then circa 1905/06 these were made obsolete (except volunteers, yeomanry and the TF when formed) with the introduction SD cap in 1905.

The slouch hat was again pattern sealed in 1915 as I believe "Hat, Smasher" I may have to look that up. In addition the UK pattern sealed specific slouch hats for Ghurkas and Garwhali's, Australians and NZ to facilitate production in the UK. Unfortunately, little actual detail of what changes if any were made between the different patterns nor how the 1915 versions differed from the pre-war patterns. The only thing I think happened is only the fastener on the left side was retained in 1915.

I'm in a learning process with slouch hats and know very little.

Joe Sweeney

[wainfleet]

Iain

I think you have a British-made Australian slouch hat. Very few photos exist of slouch hats being worn by British units in Salonika but those I've seen have either the full puggaree as in Post 9 or a leather band with metal buckle painted to look like leather - both types possibly old Boer War stock.. The plain band on your hat is typical of WW1 Australian hats, and since the British used this fastener in the Boer War and British-made Australian hats and jackets are known to exist, this seems the most likely explanation. How a NZer came to be wearing one I have no idea since, as you will know, the NZ hat looks nothing like this.

Regards,

W.

[pukman]

Thank you Joe and Wainfleet for your comments and especially Jerry for the picture of the British slouch hat ,which has proved elusive . Your answers are now helping me to understand what exactly hat I have .

As Wainfleet mentioned the New Zealand mounted rifles wore a standardised hat with a distinctive Khaki/Green/Khaki puggaree in WW1.

However,in the Palestine campaign there is a lot of photographic evidence of a plain puggare felt hat(like mine) being worn by the NZMR. They wore them brim down as per regulations September 1916.

While the Australian issued slouch hat and the British manufactured slouch hat with the Australian pattern puggaree are similar .

The fundamental differences between a WW1 Australian slouch and a British manufactured one are

No Australian issue slouch hats had press studs .

The British manufactured were made of heavier felt,and the puggaree is made of heavier felt .

I have so far tracked down 6 examples of the felt hat with the same configuration as mine .

My own ,as worn by a NZMR trooper in the Middle East . Another with a NZEF infantry puggaree over the top and badged to a Wellington Infantry regiment badge as worn in the European theatre .

My Australian source ,knows of 4 surviving examples worn by Australians ,3 worn in the European theatre and one unknown.The Australian ones may be private purchase .

Edited 11 January , 2014 by pukman

[pukman]

Now the British Slouch hat posted by Jerry is a Boer war era one, is there any examples of a WW1 out there ?

[Mike 39]

Hi Iain

There seems to be some confusion in the some of the comments about who was wearing what style felt hat in the NZEF both prior & during WW1. To clear this up for those who aren't quite sure, most NZEF units that embarked for overseas duty in 1914 were issued with & wore the typical Slouch hat with raised rim to the LH side, hitched with a short leather strap to either a lions head hooked badge or a regimental badge with a hook attached ( now very rare ). The Wellington Infantry reg & some Artillery units were known to have worn the Lemon Squeezer at this early stage of the war. By 1915, several other units were adopting the LS as shown in photo's of NZ troops at Gallipoli. By 1916, general orders required that all sectors of the NZEF ( with the exception of the Mounted Rifles ) would adopt the LS as standard head dress, the MR would continue wearing the Felt hat with a bash fore & aft without a raised rim. Although the are some period photo's showing the LS being worn by MR as well ( unofficially ).

Another point I believe needs to be clarified, is that Australian "manufactured" slouch hats were produced with hooks to hitch the rim. I think you will find that the Australians were also issued with standard British manufactured felt hat with a snap fastener to hitch the rim, as a replacements uniform item for those serving in combat locations. The same type British made felt hats were also supplied to the NZEF as a replacement uniform item, some with snap fasteners, some with hooks, some without. What they ended up with largely depended on what was available at the time & also on the different manufacturing process used by the many military contractors. Many hats were also private purchase items.

Your hat is identical to my Wellington West Coast Reg LS both in the heavy wool felt fabric, triple stitched reinforced rim, grommet vents, snap fastener & plain puggery made from the same felt as the hat. Of the 14 WW1 NZ felt hats in my collection, no two hats are the same. Either the colour varies, they're slightly different shapes, some with vents, some without. Some with chin straps & some without. Different rim reinforcing, the list goes on.

Ultimately, IMO, troops required to wear felt hats as part of the uniform, would wear what ever stores had available at that time providing they conformed to the basic military specification. The wearer would then shape it to suit, either fore & aft bash or LS.

Your hat, like mine, may well have been issued by NZEF stores but is without doubt English made & most likely a surplus run made for the AIF. The AIF had a variety of puggerie's on there slouch hats, including wool putties, plain khaki cotton as well as pleated ETC.

I don't think your hat is specifically an English made felt hat for the NZ Mounted Rifle but rather a standard English made felt hat that was available at the time of issue that would also suit the requirements of the AIF & Brit forces serving in the same location. From other hats I've seen, these felt hats tend to be of late war manufacture & more often than not, were part of there coming home uniform at the end of hostilities.

Regardless, it's still a super example of a very rare felt hat with impeccable NZMR provenance. You can't get much better than that.

Cheers

Mike

[pukman]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your comments ,which help me better understand the hat I have .As there is very little information on the plain puggaree felt hat (as worn by some NZers) out there ,I have had to go put there to seek opinions and research material..Opinions from advanced collectors such as yourself are very helpful ,as there is nothing better than a hands on approach when it comes to uniform collecting .With all the different designs and colour shades we must have looked a right lot ,but in saying that it was a time of conflict and the ordinary soldier wouldn't have taken such matters into consideration .

When I first saw this hat three years ago ,it was in a friends collection .It was described by him as an Australian Light Horse felt hat .I can see the similarities and why he had come to that conclusion .But subsequent searching by myself ,I have found a lot of photographic evidence of the hat being worn in the NZMR (as well as the NZEF on the Western front) .It must have been confusing for the soldiers themselves, but the ALH wore brim up (and sometimes an Emu feather) and Kiwi's brim down .But very similar hats never the less (although I have to point out ,most NZ mounted soldiers wore a distinctive Khaki/green/khaki, puggaree)

Cheers Iain

P.S The Otago Mounted Rifles wore there felt hats in Lemonsqeezer style in 1914 also ,and continued to do so throughout the war .They were New Zealand's only mounted troops on the Western front and the only mounted unit to officially wear the felt hat that way.

Edited 19 January , 2014 by pukman

[Mike 39]

Hi Iain

There's always a chance yours could have ALH or AIF, who knows, he could have swiped it or won it in a card game. There's many scenario's. One things for certain, regulations weren't always followed. As collectors we prefer to have an item that usually complies to regulation as it helps in confirming it's originality. On the other hand, sometimes when an item has a few questions marks it can also add to the interest of that item especially when supported with provenance.

As you've pointed out, there's plenty of evidence to show that this particular style of hat was used by the NZEF & AIF & plenty of evidence showing non regulation kit being used.

If you look up the Christchurch Press & search for their WW1 archival photo's, there's some excellent photo's of Infantry & Mounted Rifles embarking at Lyttelton. The hats are all shapes & sizes, badges in various positions & a few looking a bit scruffy. a mixture of Squeezers, Slouch's & Cheese Cutters.

Cheers

Mike

[pukman]

Hi Mike,

I at first thought it might have been a ALH hat given that Trooper Weir served in Egypt and Palestine ,and didn't go to England or the Western front .But given the overwhelming photographic evidence of that particular kind of hat being worn in that theatre by the NZMR ,I am happy to call it a British made , NZ issue felt hat. Besides ,if it was an Australian hat it may have cost me 4 to 5 x more than it did

Cheers Iain

[Mike 39]

Good call !

Show's how goos the Aussie economy has been over the past 10 years.

Mike

[pukman]

Mike,

I read a post on another forum that said 'going rate Aussie slouch hat $5000 +,other ranks infantry tunic $5000-$8000'

Either the guy was exaggerating or the guys on the West Island have money to burn.

I would suggest that our stuff is rarer ,and we are undervaluing it .

[Mike 39]

Yes I agree that the Kiwi gear is undervalued & is certainly rarer. Our small population limits the demand amongst local collectors & our military history isn't as well recognised internationally as Australian military history. It amuses me at times how some think that ANZAC stands for Australian Army Corps.

The Aussies tend to go the distance when chasing there own WW1 kit. Once again, their hats & uniforms are also incredibly rare. I think the prices they are prepared to pay reflects the national pride & patriotism they have & their country & it's history. That might also be the reason why they forget what the NZ stands for in ANZAC in their SKY doco's. ( tongue in check )

[pukman]

There was a ALH uniform sold last year for $29,000 I believe .Hat, tunic ,breeches ,boots ,kit bags etc etc named up to the same chap .Extraordinary !!!

The 1st squadron of the NZMGS(machine gun section) in Palestine had a formation of just over 200 men .I wonder how many uniform items from that unit remain .Not many I would think