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sw63

Roger Casement: How did a hero come to be considered a traitor?

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depaor01

Roger Casement's remains arrive in Baldonnel Aerodrome 1965

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Courtesy Kilmainham Gaol museum.

Dave

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Let Erin Remember

The majority of the Irish POW's in Limburg eschewed Roger Casement's attempt to enlist them. It must have been tempting to them as an alternative to the deprivation and living conditions they were enduring in the Camp. A total of 45 Irish prisoners died in captivity, and a Celtic Cross was erected by the Irish soldiers at the own expense. The Cross was renovated in recent years through the generosity of local townspeople a together with donations from regimental associations and the Irish government.

Getting back to the main topic, Casement is regarded by many as a hero in Ireland, not just because he endeavoured to bring about Irish freedom, but also because of his work in bringing the atrocities of the Belgian Congo to public attention.

Séamus

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healdav

No doubt you feel the same way about this guy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_H._Crawford

Frankly, I do.

Edited by Keith Roberts
A line removed, that I happened to agree with, but which definitely headed into the more recent political arena.

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Murrough

Frankly, I do.

Crawford, Childers,and Casement, all establishment figures and gun runners.Strange bunch.

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connaughtranger

Much drivel is often written in these posts and more is evident here! Casement was was born in Ireland and baptised by his mother as a Catholic. He was not born in England. He decided that the governing power in Ireland was not democratic, more despotic. Whatever he did for his NATIVE country could not be construed as treacherous. To condemn him to death for treason is equivalent to every member of the French Maquis being condemned a traitor, based on Germany being the ruling power (which had as much democratic backing as the British Government had for 400 years in Ireland)

How many of the French Maquis were handed over by the British to the "ruling power". Then again, perhaps you shouldn't answer that!

Jdoyle's comment re Edward Carson (post 23) is aptly put

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wig

I did not think of the posts as drivel. The Casement story is virtually unknown outside of Ireland and you cannot expect a full academic analysis of the issues. Indeed you hardly get such an analysis in Ireland where his story is at least widely taught.

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David Filsell

Surely the point is that Casement was born in Ireland, then a part of Britain. Not a newly conquered nation like France. I do not have any other than a neutral stance about the rights of Irish Independence anymore than I do now about Scottish Independence. Thus what he sought to do, and in deliberate collaboration with Britain's enemy - rightly in many people's eyes, judged to be wrong in political and wartime situation at the time in Britain by many - including some in Ireland - was to 'free' himself and his 'nation' from British rule. Not through the the British Parliament (which I know, in itself raises a huge number of other questions.Thus what he did, even if morally defensible, was illegal and traitorous as a British citizen. He was judged by the laws of the time by Britain, like those Shot at Dawn, He was judged guilty by the then government of 'his' country, again rightly or wrongly, as a traitor. Amongst those who wanted independence he was a hero. Perhaps you can have it both ways.

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healdav

Surely the point is that Casement was born in Ireland, then a part of Britain. Not a newly conquered nation like France. I do not have any other than a neutral stance about the rights of Irish Independence anymore than I do now about Scottish Independence. Thus what he sought to do, and in deliberate collaboration with Britain's enemy - rightly in many people's eyes, judged to be wrong in political and wartime situation at the time in Britain by many - including some in Ireland - was to 'free' himself and his 'nation' from British rule. Not through the the British Parliament (which I know, in itself raises a huge number of other questions.Thus what he did, even if morally defensible, was illegal and traitorous as a British citizen. He was judged by the laws of the time by Britain, like those Shot at Dawn, He was judged guilty by the then government of 'his' country, again rightly or wrongly, as a traitor. Amongst those who wanted independence he was a hero. Perhaps you can have it both ways.

Quite right. And not all or even a majority of Irish residents regarded him as anything but a traitor.

Come to think of it, democracy (as in an elected government) was in force in very few countries in the 15th century. One of the few was ... Britain (even if the election involved very few people).

Funnily enough the Pope's Bull ordering England to conquer Ireland for Christianity gets very little mention anywhere (and England was so gung ho to get involved that the Bull had to be reissued a century later! Another minor detail that never gets mentioned).

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Louis Gunn

Casement participated in a plot that not only sided with the Germans against Britain and the rest of the allies but killed over 400 people. Are they to be forgotten/ignored?

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depaor01

Quite right. And not all or even a majority of Irish residents regarded him as anything but a traitor.

Come to think of it, democracy (as in an elected government) was in force in very few countries in the 15th century. One of the few was ... Britain (even if the election involved very few people).

Funnily enough the Pope's Bull ordering England to conquer Ireland for Christianity gets very little mention anywhere (and England was so gung ho to get involved that the Bull had to be reissued a century later! Another minor detail that never gets mentioned).

Not sure I see the Casement connection here...

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jdoyle

Casement participated in a plot that not only sided with the Germans against Britain and the rest of the allies but killed over 400 people. Are they to be forgotten/ignored?

Could you clarify the over 400 figure and how you've got to it? Is this figure including the Irish Volunteers, ICA members and German sailors who were killed? I've attached a screenshot from the National Library of Ireland online exhibition re the 1916 Rising with some figures; is there any English institution with a better breakdown of the numbers?

In England generally, those killed are sadly ignored/forgotten. It's not a part of history that is mentioned in history lessons (1 hour per week at Key Stage 3) and I can't remember any Easter Rising related material on the TV recently or book launches re the events in Ireland in 1916. There was a little flurry of interest when the Troup report into the murders that took place in North King St was finally released in 2001. The young lad (Christopher Hickey) murdered in cold blood by soldiers of the North Staffs Regt in North King St is one of those to be commemorated in a recent project in Ireland to remember the children killed during the Rising.

It does look like Ireland/Home Rule may be on the new history syllabus in England from 2015 but it's likely to be an optional module. In the school where I work, there is only 1 book on Irish history in the >10000 books stocked. It's never been taken out on loan and I can't see there being much interest in bringing any more in.

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connaughtranger

Never really understood why time makes a difference. The argument appears to be that the longer you suppress a people the more right you have to do it.

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Louis Gunn

Never really understood why time makes a difference. The argument appears to be that the longer you suppress a poeple the more right you have to do it.

Who was suppressed? :blink:

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Louis Gunn

Could you clarify the over 400 figure and how you've got to it? Is this figure including the Irish Volunteers, ICA members and German sailors who were killed? I've attached a screenshot from the National Library of Ireland online exhibition re the 1916 Rising with some figures; is there any English institution with a better breakdown of the numbers?

In England generally, those killed are sadly ignored/forgotten. It's not a part of history that is mentioned in history lessons (1 hour per week at Key Stage 3) and I can't remember any Easter Rising related material on the TV recently or book launches re the events in Ireland in 1916. There was a little flurry of interest when the Troup report into the murders that took place in North King St was finally released in 2001. The young lad (Christopher Hickey) murdered in cold blood by soldiers of the North Staffs Regt in North King St is one of those to be commemorated in a recent project in Ireland to remember the children killed during the Rising.

It does look like Ireland/Home Rule may be on the new history syllabus in England from 2015 but it's likely to be an optional module. In the school where I work, there is only 1 book on Irish history in the >10000 books stocked. It's never been taken out on loan and I can't see there being much interest in bringing any more in.

I guess so many were dying on the Western front the Rising was small beer in comparison but it's the intimacy of it, men who survived the horrors of the front returning to their home town to be killed by the men whom they'd grown up beside. Irish Nationalism's depraved indifference to the Risers' victims fufilled are the fears of Irish Unionism and created a rift which still hasn't healed to this day.

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depaor01

"The Risers". Now where have I seen that before?

Can't quite remember...

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jdoyle

Sorry you weren't able to answer my question. Would have been interested to see some alternative figures.

I guess so many were dying on the Western front the Rising was small beer in comparison but it's the intimacy of it, men who survived the horrors of the front returning to their home town to be killed by the men whom they'd grown up beside. Irish Nationalism's depraved indifference to the Risers' victims fufilled are the fears of Irish Unionism and created a rift which still hasn't healed to this day.

Do you have any examples to share Gerald/Lewis?

I've a list of some ex-soldiers killed but not all fit your picture I'm afraid

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldiers-killed-in-ireland.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-malachy-halfpenny.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-joseph-walsh.html

and the treatment of an ex-soldier

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldier-james-mcalorum.html

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archangel9

"The Risers". Now where have I seen that before?

Can't quite remember...

A Lt Colonel of sorts perhaps?

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depaor01

A Lt Colonel of sorts perhaps?

Spot on Archangel.

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Louis Gunn

Sorry you weren't able to answer my question. Would have been interested to see some alternative figures.

Do you have any examples to share Gerald/Lewis?

I've a list of some ex-soldiers killed but not all fit your picture I'm afraid

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldiers-killed-in-ireland.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-malachy-halfpenny.html

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/ex-soldier-joseph-walsh.html

and the treatment of an ex-soldier

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/ex-soldier-james-mcalorum.html

Surely everyone, think of all the soldiers from Irish regiments killed in the fighting? (not that the deaths of all the non-Irish soldiers wasn't an equal tragedy and horrific crime). My source for casualty figures is Foy and Barton's The Easter Rising which is a commendable book

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Louis Gunn

"The Risers". Now where have I seen that before?

Can't quite remember...

Surely that's just a question of semantics, Risers, insurgents, rebels, whatever you want to call them? And sidestepping the question?

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keithmroberts

can we stick carefully to the topic please.

Keith Roberts

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Khaki

A mauser or a lee enfield, which rifle has done evil

khaki

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