9th Battalion Rifle Brigade - July 1915

[purvis15]

Rob

The letter was actually addressed to my Great Uncle Andrew Nugee who had suffered a head wound from which he lost his right eye which was how the letter came to be in his possession. It must have been sent to him in response to a letter sent to Pip by Andrew. See attached picture of him recovering at Boothby Hall in Lincolnshire.

Julian

Looks like it Julian.

"Great" photograph - you can see the pain of his wounds written across his face. I guess the only way for a subaltern to survive at that stage of the war through to the end was to get a reasonably severe wound to take one out of the fighting for a time or for good.

[andrew moberly]

purvis15 - Andrew - your relative died in good company. My first cousin (twice removed) was John Purvis and commanded 9th Bn RB, B Coy and he too died that day.

I'm responding rather belatedly to your post of 20 May - I don't know what 9RB Company my cousin Sjt Moberly was in but am still hoping to find out. It's amazing that you have John Purvis's letters from the front.

Does anyone know if there is going to be any special service/ceremony near Loos or Ypres on 25 Sept this year – the 100^th anniversary of the attack at Bellewaarde Ridge?

[purvis15]

Hi Andrew - sorry for the delay, only just looked up the forum today. I don't know if there are any formal remembrance going on in Ypres for the 25th September 100th anniversary (I suspect more will be happening at Loos further south where the main attacks were). However my Dad, my son and I are going to be visiting in the area over this time and will go to Railway wood/Bellewaerde area on the 25th to walk the battlefield and then we are laying a wreath as part of the Menin Gate ceremony at 8.30 in the evening for John and his Rifle Brigade comrades (unofficially), Happy to bump into any RB descendants there.

purvis15 - Andrew - your relative died in good company. My first cousin (twice removed) was John Purvis and commanded 9th Bn RB, B Coy and he too died that day.

I'm responding rather belatedly to your post of 20 May - I don't know what 9RB Company my cousin Sjt Moberly was in but am still hoping to find out. It's amazing that you have John Purvis's letters from the front.

Does anyone know if there is going to be any special service/ceremony near Loos or Ypres on 25 Sept this year – the 100^th anniversary of the attack at Bellewaarde Ridge?

[levenside23]

I am going to be in Ypres on the 25th September and am taking a guided tour around the site of the Second Attack on Bellewaarde Ridge on Saturday 26th, to remember my great-uncle who died, aged 19, during the attack. He was with the 2nd Lancs. I have found plenty about Hugh Butterworth and about other regiments involved but precious little about the 2nd Lancs involvement, outside of the regimental war diary. If anyone knows more might they share with me? thanks

[purvis15]

I was in Ypres on the 25th. Apart from a very busy Last Post at the Menin Gate I am not aware of any other things that were going on in Ypres. Most of the activity seemed to be at Loos and we met a few people who had been there. I visited the site of the 25th Sept attack at Bellewaerde and apart from a group of Dutch guys didn't see anyone else up there between 10 and 11 in the morning. So unless something kicked off later we were not aware of there was not much sign of anything official.

[Jon]

Purvis 15 - I am doing a talk on the 25 September diversions at Worcester University tomorrow and shall be speaking about the Bellewaarde attack. One of my slides includes two of the most poignant original documents I have seen, or indeedwill ever see, in my career as a researcher written by John Purvis from the crucible of the fighting deep in the German system. In my book Blood and Iron I describe it thus:

The course of the battle which ensued can, when combined with German accounts, be traced – almost in real time – by leafing through the original messages and signals which still lie in the War Diary of 9/RB in the National Archives. They are potent documents indeed and Hugh [butterworth] is mentioned by name in that one significant message from Lieutenant John Purvis. Written in grey or in blue or violet indelible pencil, many of the messages are scribbled frantically; the quality of the handwriting collapsing under the sheer pressure of pausing to bend - using one knee as a desk - in an attempt to communicate from the very crucible of battle. Some are folded or crumpled by being in the hands of the runners whose duty it was to get the message through. The immediacy of documents such as these, serve to take us closer to the action. Enough of the original tranche of messages and signals survive to piece together the action but who knows how many were written and were lost as courageous runners, criss-crossing no man’s land under fire, perished; their undelivered communications left to flutter away onto the dank battlefield. None remain in the hand of Lieutenant Scholey for example, whose A Company got into the German second line northeast of Bellewaarde Farm, nor are there any from Hugh. Might this suggest that these two officers were killed at an early stage in the battle?

Yet it is that first urgent appeal for help from D Company from John Purvis in particular - obviously from the beginning of the battle - which catches the eye as one scans the pages of the War Diary and that is as much to do with its colour as it is to do with its content. It exudes a special poignancy that no amount of reading of the official histories or battle narratives composed at a later date can ever begin to approach. We know from official reports that it was raining that dark September morning but that one message, written in indelible pencil on page ‘61’ and torn from Purvis’s ‘blue squared’ officer’s notebook, is smeared and smudged with florets of violet where the rain drops have struck the page and smeared the pencilled handwriting at the very moment of its creation in the heat of combat. The message is untimed but, when placed in the context of the other documents, one can deduce that it was probably written sometime around 4.30 am and was probably the first to reach Major Henry Howard. I make no apology for running the following sequence of messages as they were written, sent and received during the battle where this is known. They speak more eloquently than any narrative written at a distance of almost one hundred years from the safety of a desk surrounded by sheaves of notes, documents and maps ever could, telling as they do, their own story of youthful vigour, of hope, of courage and duty as the call for ever more men, ever more bombs and ever more bombers reaches a heart rending crescendo. They also speak of urgency, of anxiety and even, perhaps, resignation as the battle rages on and one by one, like the gradually dwindling band of officers and riflemen fighting in the German lines the messages appear to ‘fade away’. They stand as a fitting testament to the courage and determination of all those Kitchener men, and particularly those of the 9^th Battalion, the Rifle Brigade, who fought until they could fight no longer on the Bellewaarde Ridge during the Loos ‘diversion’ on 25 September 1915 and to their officers and ‘temporary gentlemen’ like Hugh Montagu Butterworth.

Jon

[purvis15]

Thank you for that Jon. I read and enjoyed your book very much and have corresponded a bit with Andy Pay since then and learned a great deal about my cousin - who I knew nothing about when I started the journey other than that he died in the Great War.

I managed to get some scanned copies sent through from another forum member and you are right about the impact of them. I stood at Point 24 in the German trench system on 25th September 2015, 100 years on, with my Dad (also called John Purvis) and my son and we read out this very passage, and I do not mind saying that I was moved to tears. Knowing that this was very close to where he spent his last desperate moments with those brave men of the Rifle Brigade made it very real and immediate.

I hope your talk goes well and if you are ever speaking in Scotland let me know as we would love to come and hear you. I found all of John's letters from the front and his family ones to him along with the ones written after his death which tell the whole sad story, all best, Rob

Purvis message.JPGPurvis 15 - I am doing a talk on the 25 September diversions at Worcester University tomorrow and shall be speaking about the Bellewaarde attack. One of my slides includes two of the most poignant original documents I have seen, or indeedwill ever see, in my career as a researcher written by John Purvis from the crucible of the fighting deep in the German system. In my book Blood and Iron I describe it thus:

The course of the battle which ensued can, when combined with German accounts, be traced – almost in real time – by leafing through the original messages and signals which still lie in the War Diary of 9/RB in the National Archives. They are potent documents indeed and Hugh [butterworth] is mentioned by name in that one significant message from Lieutenant John Purvis. Written in grey or in blue or violet indelible pencil, many of the messages are scribbled frantically; the quality of the handwriting collapsing under the sheer pressure of pausing to bend - using one knee as a desk - in an attempt to communicate from the very crucible of battle. Some are folded or crumpled by being in the hands of the runners whose duty it was to get the message through. The immediacy of documents such as these, serve to take us closer to the action. Enough of the original tranche of messages and signals survive to piece together the action but who knows how many were written and were lost as courageous runners, criss-crossing no man’s land under fire, perished; their undelivered communications left to flutter away onto the dank battlefield. None remain in the hand of Lieutenant Scholey for example, whose A Company got into the German second line northeast of Bellewaarde Farm, nor are there any from Hugh. Might this suggest that these two officers were killed at an early stage in the battle?

Yet it is that first urgent appeal for help from D Company from John Purvis in particular - obviously from the beginning of the battle - which catches the eye as one scans the pages of the War Diary and that is as much to do with its colour as it is to do with its content. It exudes a special poignancy that no amount of reading of the official histories or battle narratives composed at a later date can ever begin to approach. We know from official reports that it was raining that dark September morning but that one message, written in indelible pencil on page ‘61’ and torn from Purvis’s ‘blue squared’ officer’s notebook, is smeared and smudged with florets of violet where the rain drops have struck the page and smeared the pencilled handwriting at the very moment of its creation in the heat of combat. The message is untimed but, when placed in the context of the other documents, one can deduce that it was probably written sometime around 4.30 am and was probably the first to reach Major Henry Howard. I make no apology for running the following sequence of messages as they were written, sent and received during the battle where this is known. They speak more eloquently than any narrative written at a distance of almost one hundred years from the safety of a desk surrounded by sheaves of notes, documents and maps ever could, telling as they do, their own story of youthful vigour, of hope, of courage and duty as the call for ever more men, ever more bombs and ever more bombers reaches a heart rending crescendo. They also speak of urgency, of anxiety and even, perhaps, resignation as the battle rages on and one by one, like the gradually dwindling band of officers and riflemen fighting in the German lines the messages appear to ‘fade away’. They stand as a fitting testament to the courage and determination of all those Kitchener men, and particularly those of the 9^th Battalion, the Rifle Brigade, who fought until they could fight no longer on the Bellewaarde Ridge during the Loos ‘diversion’ on 25 September 1915 and to their officers and ‘temporary gentlemen’ like Hugh Montagu Butterworth.

Jon

[Guest bjb]

This is the first time I have joined a forum and,was fascinated to read all the information on this particular Brigade. My grandfather Walter W A Storkey S/11986 was with the 9th Btn Rifle Brigade and at the Hellewaarde battle. I've only recently discovered this by piecing together odd snippets of information from postcards he sent home, a few lines he wrote in a diary and reading War Diaries on Ancestry. I am writing a family history book and have got to the section of my granddads war service so I found all your posts very fascinating and helpful.

Thank You.

[KRMatthews]

Some great photos for you.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3666866/Relaxing-carnage-Heartbreaking-photos-troops-eve-Somme-100-years-ago.html

 

(I'm looking for any info on my Great Grandfather S/12899 Alfred John Payne, Missing 15th Sept declared Killed in Action 26th Sept 1916)

[stiletto_33853]

KR,

 

His service record survives, however I do not have a picture of him.

28 Garton Road, Thornton heath, 28 years old, a Coal Porter.

 

Andy

Edited 8 August , 2017 by stiletto_33853

[KRMatthews]

Hi Andy,

Thanks- I have managed to have a flick through his service records on Ancestry luckily. Do you know if they ever mess up memorial records? Just the one with his service number shows the memorial at Arras, but has the date of death as 25th but he was declared missing on the 15th Sept. Just also think Theipval would seemingly be a more logically memorial in terms of location?? Any thoughts on this!?

 

Thanks

Katie

Reigate, Surrey 

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Katie,

 

Oh yes indeed they have a lot messed up. I have 4, 8th battalion men killed at Hooge on 30/7/15 commemorated on the Arras Memorial as 30/7/16, have not checked the 7th & 9th men as yet, and regularly come across wrong numbers or spelling on the headstone.

Your great grandfather's record, if you look at the sheets they record as "accepted as having died on or since 15/9/16", however on another sheet of his record it says "regarded for office purposes as having died on or since 25/9/16" The first record is from 1916, however the 2nd record is from July 1917. If they accept deaths in this way it usually means missing and no information has been forthcoming.

There is a case of another Rifle Brigade battalion on the Somme, where a lot of the men just simply disappeared, literally, with only say their pay books surviving. The Commanding Officer wrote to the Depot asking if this was evidence enough to record the men as having been killed in action on the day of the attack

 

 

Andy

[KRMatthews]

Andy- thank you so much for that information! It does seem there may be some mistakes out there for sure! You are clearly much better at reading that handwriting than me- an I'm a teacher! I think best if I take the Arras memorial as the correct one. Hopefully my relative in the 8th Rifle battalion is a little easier to work out,

 

thanks for all the help

Katie

[stiletto_33853]

Welcome Katie,

 

Who was your relation in the 8th RB, their records are significantly better.

 

Andy

[purvis15]

On 16/10/2015 at 20:41, Jon said:

Purvis 15 - I am doing a talk on the 25 September diversions at Worcester University tomorrow and shall be speaking about the Bellewaarde attack. One of my slides includes two of the most poignant original documents I have seen, or indeedwill ever see, in my career as a researcher written by John Purvis from the crucible of the fighting deep in the German system. In my book Blood and Iron I describe it thus:

The course of the battle which ensued can, when combined with German accounts, be traced – almost in real time – by leafing through the original messages and signals which still lie in the War Diary of 9/RB in the National Archives. They are potent documents indeed and Hugh [butterworth] is mentioned by name in that one significant message from Lieutenant John Purvis. Written in grey or in blue or violet indelible pencil, many of the messages are scribbled frantically; the quality of the handwriting collapsing under the sheer pressure of pausing to bend - using one knee as a desk - in an attempt to communicate from the very crucible of battle. Some are folded or crumpled by being in the hands of the runners whose duty it was to get the message through. The immediacy of documents such as these, serve to take us closer to the action. Enough of the original tranche of messages and signals survive to piece together the action but who knows how many were written and were lost as courageous runners, criss-crossing no man’s land under fire, perished; their undelivered communications left to flutter away onto the dank battlefield. None remain in the hand of Lieutenant Scholey for example, whose A Company got into the German second line northeast of Bellewaarde Farm, nor are there any from Hugh. Might this suggest that these two officers were killed at an early stage in the battle?

Yet it is that first urgent appeal for help from D Company from John Purvis in particular - obviously from the beginning of the battle - which catches the eye as one scans the pages of the War Diary and that is as much to do with its colour as it is to do with its content. It exudes a special poignancy that no amount of reading of the official histories or battle narratives composed at a later date can ever begin to approach. We know from official reports that it was raining that dark September morning but that one message, written in indelible pencil on page ‘61’ and torn from Purvis’s ‘blue squared’ officer’s notebook, is smeared and smudged with florets of violet where the rain drops have struck the page and smeared the pencilled handwriting at the very moment of its creation in the heat of combat. The message is untimed but, when placed in the context of the other documents, one can deduce that it was probably written sometime around 4.30 am and was probably the first to reach Major Henry Howard. I make no apology for running the following sequence of messages as they were written, sent and received during the battle where this is known. They speak more eloquently than any narrative written at a distance of almost one hundred years from the safety of a desk surrounded by sheaves of notes, documents and maps ever could, telling as they do, their own story of youthful vigour, of hope, of courage and duty as the call for ever more men, ever more bombs and ever more bombers reaches a heart rending crescendo. They also speak of urgency, of anxiety and even, perhaps, resignation as the battle rages on and one by one, like the gradually dwindling band of officers and riflemen fighting in the German lines the messages appear to ‘fade away’. They stand as a fitting testament to the courage and determination of all those Kitchener men, and particularly those of the 9^th Battalion, the Rifle Brigade, who fought until they could fight no longer on the Bellewaarde Ridge during the Loos ‘diversion’ on 25 September 1915 and to their officers and ‘temporary gentlemen’ like Hugh Montagu Butterworth.

Jon

 

I know I am very late in finding this out but listening to a podcast from The Old Front Line yesterday I heard that Jon Cooksey had died, I gather back in 2020.  This is very sad news indeed.  He had a great mind and heart and gave many of us an education on what happened in WWI at a human level.  He is a great loss to his family and friends, but also to those of us in the wider interested WWI 'community'.  Thank you Jon for all your work and help in our finding out more about the reality of WWI for our ancestors.

[phagen]

Can anyone tell me where the 9th Battalion Rifle Bridge were around 9th January 1916?   I think it was in the Ypres region.  Tring to find out about Cpl George Eddie Poole

Thank you

[stiletto_33853]

Elverdinghe, in farms and Chateau until the night 0f 3-4/1/16 when they relieved the 5th K.S.L.I. in trenches. 8/1/16 relieved by 9th KRRC and proceeded to "B" Huts

Edited 8 December , 2023 by stiletto_33853