9th Battalion Rifle Brigade - July 1915

[Bombuslucorum]

Hi,

Does anybody know where the 9th were on 28/29th July 1915? I'm researching a relative for my Dad. John Cooper has his name on the Menin Gate as died on 28th but his service records say 29th, also his casualty form says he was buried. It looks like it says 'Buried 1.17.b.53 ref Belgium and France sheet 28 1.40000

Thanks in anticipation of any help.

[taylov]

Not a lot of detail in the RB Chronicle. The 9th RB had arrived in Cassel on 21/22 May 1915 having left Aldershot on the 19th.

From mid June they were based in or near Ypres. The first week of July was spent in billets at Poperinghe and then back to trenches in the Ypres sector. The entry for July 27 to 29th is simply "In trenches. Fairly quite". The location is not given but at 3.15am on the 30th July the were reports of "an enormous column of fireworks" from the direction of the enemy. This was the famous Liquid-fire attack at Hooge just south of the Menin Road on the 8th Battalion of the Rifles.

On the morning of the 30th July, the 9th Bn. was ordered to provide support at Hooge, suggesting they had been close by for the last few days.

Tony

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

His battalion moved into the trenches at 12.15am on 27 July 1915.

The War Diary then reads,

27 July 1915 - very quiet day no casualties. Emergency 'Stand To' practised

28 July 1915 - Enemy shelled most firing line and support trenches all day, apparently registering. Enemy aeroplanes active and flying very low.

29 July 1915 - Two German observation balloons up all day. Enemy shelled support and communication trenches very ??? all day. Front trenches consistently whiz-banged. Casualties small.

Regards,

Graeme

[Bombuslucorum]

Many thanks Graeme and Tony. I was a bit confused about the burial details on his casualty form, but his name appearing on the Menin Gate to be honest! I've got quite a bit if information, it's just putting the jigsaw together!

Thanks

Lee

[Roger H]

Often original burial plots were destroyed during shelling etc I have marked the place of his burial (I.17.b.5.3) on this March 1916 trench map (courtesy of TNA trench map DVD from N and M Press)

Roger

[Bombuslucorum]

Wow Roger! This is incredible. I take it that is why his name is on the gate then.

Thank you all so much for your help

[stiletto_33853]

The commanding officer of the 9th RB (Villiers-Stuart) gives quite an account for this period of time if you would like it, although I must warn you there is quite a lot of it, far more than the battalion, brigade or divisional HQ gives in their war diaries.

Andy

[Bombuslucorum]

His name crops up a lot! I've tried to order the book from my local library, but to no avail, so it looks like amazon for me!

[stiletto_33853]

There are a few books covering Villiers-Stuart and his Army career, all written by Lieut. - Col. Maxwell, an ex Gurkha Rifles officer, the same regiment as Villiers - Stuart came from until asked to form the 9th RB whilst he was on leave in the UK.

These being

"Desperate Encounters" the story of the 5th Gurkha Rifles

"Villiers - Stuart on the Frontier"

"Villiers - Stuart goes to war"

Villiers - Stuart after being evacuated home after the 25/9/15 attack by the 9th RB at Bellewaarde he went back to India, raised and commanded the Mountain Warfare School, was the chief instructor to two Nepalese Brigade's at Kakul and then commanded the 3rd Battalion of the Guides Infantry. Following this he became the Inspector General of troops in India.

Andy

[Bombuslucorum]

Thanks Andy and everyone else. I've almost got a complete picture for my Dad's 80th. We've always just gone to the Menin Gate, paid out respects and gone home. We went for 11/11 this year as his treat. I thought it would be a nice touch to find out as much as I can. Ultimate goal is to find a medal too. I'm not holding much hope though.

[stiletto_33853]

Sorry, can't help you with any medals, although 99% of my medal collection is to the 14th Divisions Rifle Brigade battalions.

Regarding his burial position, this would have been behind the 9th R.B.'s front line and on the far right of the battalions position. If you are back in Ypres again, drive out to the museum at Hooge and park there, if you look back down the Menin Road towards Ypres the 9th RB's positions covered that area including the road by the Culvert and also into the field on both sides of the road.

Andy

[Bombuslucorum]

I just thought I'd post a quick update. Somebody has sent my brother a picture of John and his campaign medal card. Very random, but very welcome too! I've also managed to track down one of Villiers books. I just need to get to see the war diaries now and I'd be pretty happy.

[Bombuslucorum]

The commanding officer of the 9th RB (Villiers-Stuart) gives quite an account for this period of time if you would like it, although I must warn you there is quite a lot of it, far more than the battalion, brigade or divisional HQ gives in their war diaries.

Andy

Hi Andy,

Where can I get the Villiers-Stuart account from? I'm looking to go to the museum in the coming months too.

Thanks

Lee

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Lee,

Villiers-Stuart account is in Chapter XIII "The German Attack" in the book "Villiers-Stuart goes to war", from page 97 onwards. If you cannot get a copy from your library let me know and I will scan the pages for you. The same applies re. the 9th Rifle Brigade war diary if you have not already got a copy of it.

Great to see a picture of John, thank you for posting it on the forum.

Andy

[andrew moberly]

Hi Andy, following a visit to Ypres 3 weeks ago to see my distant cousin's name on the Menin Gate, I’ve been trying to find out more about him and the battle of Loos in which he was killed on 25 Sept 1915. "He" was (Charles) Gordon Herbert Moberly, a Serjeant in 9Bn Rifle Brigade.

I gather from your (and other) very helpful posts that he wasn’t really at Loos at all, but at the "diversionary" attack some distance away at Bellewaarde Ridge. I have just ordered the Butterworth book "Blood and Iron: Letters from the Western Front" about this attack, but would be very interested to see the sections in 9RB War diary, and other War Diaries eg of 14th Division, covering the action on 25 Sept.

I have no idea where Gordon’s medals might be, but note that you have many medals from the 14th Divisions Rifle Brigade battalions. I don’t suppose you have his? By the time they were issued in 1919 he had no immediate family to collect them, so it was left to his two surviving maiden aunts to pick them up. The declaration signed by Margaret Amy Moberly affirms rather sadly that he had no living parents or grandparents and no siblings, nephews, nieces, wife or children. (But there is a story here - for another time!).

Andrew

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Andrew,

No battalion of The Rifle Brigade were actually involved in The Battle of Loo's, but a good few battalions of the Regiment were involved in these diversionary attacks with the 9th RB attack at Bellewaarde suffering quite severe casualties to such an extent that the RSM, when asking the CO where the battalion was on their relief, broke down in tears when he received the answer this is all that remains.

You will find "Blood and Iron" a very good book on the attack followed by the 9th RB, another book to look out for is "Villiers-Stuart Goes to War" Villiers-Stuart was the CO of the 9th RB from its formation until he was sent home after the attack of the 25th September.

I am sorry, although my collection is based on the Rifle Brigade battalions of the 14th Division I do not have your relatives medals, but several others that were wounded or killed with the 9th RB on this day.

There is a considerable amount of information in the 9th RB war diary, the Brigade diary and the Divisional diary regarding the actions of the 25th, hence I would suggest that if you send me a personal message with your e-mail address I will send the relevant parts of those diaries to you, the 9th RB diary alone covers 6 pages without the appendices all covering the 25th September, with the Brigade and Divisional diaries containing maps, action reports and so on. If I can help you in anyway regarding this action let me know as it is an action I have spent a lot of time on helping Jon with "Blood and Iron" right down to the cyclist company that supplied burial details.

Andy

[andrew moberly]

Thank you Andy, I will send you a PM. So far as I know the only 2 Moberlys killed in WW1 were both killed in the Battle of Loos on 25 Sept 1915 - Gordon's cousin Henry Stuart Moberly was Lt attached to the 69th Punjabis, and is commemorated on the Neuve Chapelle memorial. Im beginning to realise that, like Gordon, he wasnt actually killed at Loos but at another diversionary attack, at Pietre, about 10 miles from Loos. I dont suppose you know anything about that attack? Andrew

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Andrew,

Pietre was another of the diversionary attacks that the RB were involved in, this time the 20th Division RB battalions, primarily the 12th RB. I will have a look at the 20th Div RB battalions diaries for you.

Received your pm, I will send the 9th RB material over to you this weekend.

Andy

[andrew moberly]

Thanks Andy, I look forward to receiving the 9RB material, it's very kind of you.

Meanwhile I am half way through the Butterworth book and about to assault the German trenches on 25 September 1915. I don’t know which company my relation CGH Moberly was in (ABC or D) , but it's extraordinary reading about 9RB’s 4 months in Flanders as I know he was with them throughout that time (from 20/21 May) – and there is so much detail about the build-up to the attack at Bellewaarde Ridge, I can now imagine him crawling out into No Man’s Land 20 minutes ahead of the attack and waiting, dangerously exposed, for the signal to assault. Andrew

[purvis15]

Thanks Andy, I look forward to receiving the 9RB material, it's very kind of you.

Meanwhile I am half way through the Butterworth book and about to assault the German trenches on 25 September 1915. I don’t know which company my relation CGH Moberly was in (ABC or D) , but it's extraordinary reading about 9RB’s 4 months in Flanders as I know he was with them throughout that time (from 20/21 May) – and there is so much detail about the build-up to the attack at Bellewaarde Ridge, I can now imagine him crawling out into No Man’s Land 20 minutes ahead of the attack and waiting, dangerously exposed, for the signal to assault. Andrew

Andrew - your relative died in good company. My first cousin (twice removed) was John Purvis and commanded 9th Bn RB, B Coy and he too died that day. Would be interesting to know what Coy your relative was in. I have John's letters from the front, including his last one and it is fairly clear that on the one hand he was not too optimistic about his chances of surviving but that they were all determined to give a good account of themselves, which they did. I found it interesting that after all the slagging off of the intelligence of WWI attacks that 9th Bn tried to infiltrate close to the enemy lines under cover of darkness which is a prime reason they got into the German trenches, albeit that they couldn't then hold them against fierce counter attacks and artillery fire. John's letters don't have any great detail in them on names or places for obvious reasons and his notepads and journals did not come back from the front, I presume confiscated for security at the time after his death, so I can't really add much although he witnessed most of the main actions between their deployment in May and the fateful 25th September attack when the Bn was more or less destroyed. Villiers Stuart's letter to John's parents after his death is pretty heartbreaking - he is clearly a broken man after the 25th, which for a career soldier like him is instructive.

[Julianw]

My Great Uncle, Lt Andrew Nugee, also served in B Coy 9 RB and he was wounded during this action. You can read all about him by going to the attached link https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/3290916

I also have a letter to him from his Company Commander, John Purvis. You will be able to read it in the images.

[purvis15]

My Great Uncle, Lt Andrew Nugee, also served in B Coy 9 RB and he was wounded during this action. You can read all about him by going to the attached link https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/3290916

I also have a letter to him from his Company Commander, John Purvis. You will be able to read it in the images.

Thank you Julian, very interesting. I was struggling to read the text of the OC's letter to your Gt Uncle but I am not sure the handwriting is John Purvis'. I couldn't see a date and I couldn't make out the end signature clearly. Your Gt Uncle was wounded on the 26th July in the Hooge fighting and John died on the 25th Sep in the Bellewaerde Ridge attack and the letter indicates that all those company commanders (from what I could make out) are still alive (and they all died on the 25th Sep). It is not Villiers Stuart's handwriting either. If the signature is "Pip" it could be Pip Parkin who was assigned as bombing officer who I think was in the Durham Light Infantry as one of John's letters comments on him being reassigned to the battalion for the 25th Sep attack with his Durham "hooligans" about which John is clearly pleased.

The Sgt Willey mentioned by your Gt Uncle in his memoirs wrote a nice letter to John's father in 1917 so clearly they knew one another fairly well, and also he won a DCM on the 25th Sep for his conduct, so quite a figure in the battalion.

Many thanks, Rob

[Julianw]

Rob

You are correct. There is no date but it was obviously sent after he was wounded and before the 25th September. The letter clearly came from an officer and I naturally assumed it must have been his OC from it's tone, but the signature on closer inspection might be Pip.

Yours Julian

[purvis15]

Rob

You are correct. There is no date but it was obviously sent after he was wounded and before the 25th September. The letter clearly came from an officer and I naturally assumed it must have been his OC from it's tone, but the signature on closer inspection might be Pip.

Yours Julian

I think from what I can make out it is actually talking about John in the body of the letter, and I know John and Pip became good friends with Pip assigned to 9th Bn RB for the 25th Sep attack even though he was DLI (no idea whether he survived). The tone is one of friendly concern for John's 'nerves' which I guess is shorthand for shell shock. I have some letters from John which shows that the carnage was affecting him, particularly burying the dead of earlier attacks who would just fall to pieces in their hands and also days of bombardment during the German July/Aug attacks at Hooge. He was concussed by a 'jack johnson' shell as he calls it which blew up a bomb store in the trench next to him and he was hit by shrapnel in the thigh which just bruised his leg so I guess he was moving towards the realisation of the veteran that not only can it happen to you, but before too much longer it certainly will. He was looking forward to his leave in September to a very great degree and it was then cancelled for this attack so going into it he must have been at the end of his tether, but to his credit he kept on with his job, retained Villiers Stuart's confidence as a company commander which is saying something, and eventually died fighting with his men deep in the German trench network. I can't really imagine what it took to do this, and thankfully I probably never will.

I should try and do with my archive what you have done with yours someday when I get the time. If you had any tips on accomplishing that I, and I am sure others on the forums here would be interested to learn how to do that.

regards, Rob

[Julianw]

Rob

The letter was actually addressed to my Great Uncle Andrew Nugee who had suffered a head wound from which he lost his right eye which was how the letter came to be in his possession. It must have been sent to him in response to a letter sent to Pip by Andrew. See attached picture of him recovering at Boothby Hall in Lincolnshire.

Julian