The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own) 10th/11th Battalion

[blackburnian]

Hello Everyone

I've been trying to establish which Battalion my Grandfather would have been a member. He enlisted on 4 September 1914 and his qualifying date was 21 July 1915. My presumption is that he would have been either in the 10th or 11th Battalion. Could anyone confirm that this correct and also advise me on where I can view the War Diaries in respect of his service.

I would be most grateful.

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[Bardess]

Hi Blackburnian and welcome. I have the WD for 11th Bn. If you post your GFs name I can search it for you

[blackburnian]

Thank you Bardess - my grandfather was Fred Cumpstey

[Bardess]

I'm afraid there were no hits but I see that he was discharged due to wounds on 16 May 1917

[Bardess]

Here is an extract from the WD:

01 - 02.05.17 RUYAULCOURT

Training and working parties.

03.05.17 FRONT LINE

Relieve 12^th Bn RB, centre Bn RIGHT sector in front of TRESCAULT and take over 800 yards line Q.4.d.6.8 to Q.5.a.4.8. B and D Coys in front line; A and C Coys in intermediate line Q.15.a.0.9 to Q.15.a.8.4. HQ in HAVRINCOURT WOOD Q14Central.

The following immediate awards in connection with the operations against HAVRINCOURT WOOD on April 4^th appeared in Divisional Orders.

DSO T/Captain Hon A M BERTIE

MC T/Captain H M STEPHENSON, RAMC attd 11^th Bn RB

MC T/Lieut [A/Captain] H A SLADE

DCM No 1657 CSM PARGETER, W

04.05.17 FRONT LINE

Quiet day. A fake gas alarm received from the LEFT 11pm.

05.05.17 FRONT LINE

Another fake gas alarm 11pm. These fake alarms seem to be due to sentries mistaking enemy golden rain rockets for our gas signal which is gold and silver rain.

06.05.17 FRONT LINE

Two NCOs patrols were sent out during night but encountered no enemy. B Coy’s [2/Lieut FAIRFAX] HQ heavily shelled and evacuated. One man of C Coy slightly wounded by AA shell. An officers patrol under 2/Lieut COATES went out at 12 noon towards FEMY WOOD and were fired on by an enemy post at Q.4.b.00.75 at point blank range. Patrol returned with no casualties.

07.05.17 FRONT LINE

Quiet day. 1 OR slightly wounded with shrapnel. 2/Lieuts CLARKE, JACKSON, WESTON joined as reinforcements. An officers patrol under 2/Lieut FORBES discovered enemy posts unoccupied in no man’s land at Q.5.a.5.3 and Q.4.b.7.3.

08.05.17 FRONT LINE

An officers patrol under 2/Lieut SMITH attempted to locate enemy wire reported Q.5.a.5.6 – Q.4.b.3.7. Work was heard in progress on their line.

09.05.17 FRONT LINE

Quiet day. Work continued on front and support lines.

10.05.17 FRONT LINE

A Coy [2/Lieut DAVISON] relieve B Coy [2/Lieut FAIRFAX] and C Coy [Lieut GREEN] relieve D Coy [2/Lieut GRAHAM] in the front line.

11.05.17 FRONT LINE

One platoon B Coy sent up to support line and attached to C. Work continued on front and support lines. 2/Lieut C V THOMPSON wounded.

12.05.17 FRONT LINE

Work on front and support lines. Quiet day.

13.05.17 FRONT LINE

LEFT Bn of the Bde [10^th Bn RB] relieved by a Bn 61^st Bde. We take over 50 yards more on the LEFT and become LEFT Bn in the Bde.

14.05.17 FRONT LINE

Quiet day. Work continued on front and support line wire.

15.05.17 FRONT LINE

Work continues.

16.05.17 FRONT LINE

Relief postponed 24 hours.

[blackburnian]

Thank you Bardess for your prompt response.

Do I take it, therefore, that he was in the 11th Battalion and participated in the actions you describe and was this at the Battle of Loos? That is where I was always told he fought.He was indeed discharged on 16 May 1917 - he was severely wounded.

Thank you very much for responding to me request, it is greatly appreciated

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[Bardess]

Sorry, I don't know if he was in the 11th Bn - I would be guessing and that's not the way to go

[blackburnian]

Thank you - absolutely. My understanding was that he was wounded in 1915 during the Battle of Loos - would you know why was it necessary for him to have to wait until 1917 to be discharged ?

Thank you once again for your help.

Blackburnian

[Bardess]

I can only imagine that, if he was wounded in 1915, he recovered sufficiently. He was more than likely wounded more than once unfortunately

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Blackburnian,

Do you have a number for him?? No Battalion of the Regiment took part in the actual Battle of Loos but were involved in subsidiary attacks. He could also have been in the 12th RB.

Andy

[blackburnian]

Hi Andy

Thank you for contacting me. His Number was S1462

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[stiletto_33853]

12th Rifle Brigade, will check to see if I have anything on him for you.

Andy

[blackburnian]

Hello Andy

Thank you very much for the image and the information. Are you able to tell me anything about where he might have been in France and when he might have been wounded or point me in the right direction.?

I really do appreciate your efforts because I was at a loss where to start my search.

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[battiscombe]

If wounded in earlier in the war [reports of wounded became scarcer later in war due to quantity of casualties] his name may well appear in a casualty list under 'wounded' published in the Times, or indeed other National newspapers; or a local newspaper. A quick attempt at searching the Times 1915-17 can only find one A Cumpstey [50160] from Preston.., but he was a wounded Fusilier .. 1917.

[stiletto_33853]

Blackburnian,

Going through the Rifle Brigade casualty lists presently. This will take a little time as there are a lot of them, however I could not find him in the 25/9/15 (Loo's although Pietre in the 12th RB's case for a subsidiary attack) casualty lists.

Andy

[blackburnian]

Thanks Andy, I appreciate your efforts and patience

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[blackburnian]

Hi Andy

I'm presuming that your searches of the casualty lists have not produced any information relating to my Grandfather?

I would like to thank you for all your efforts on my behalf, truly appreciated

Blackburnian

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Blackburnian,

Still looking, as mentioned there are a lot of sheets of casualty lists from July 15 to the end of the war, today has just been a little hectic in real life.

Andy

[blackburnian]

Sorry Andy - I'll leave you to it.

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Blackburnian,

Got him, 25/9/15 indeed wounded in action

zoomed in

[stiletto_33853]

The battalion's medical officer (Captain G. Malim (R.A.M.C.) was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions on that day in attending to the wounded. Captain Malim was knocked senseless but recovered and continued his work on the wounded single handed. Within a few minutes another direct hit on the parapet hurled him into the air and exposed what remained of the aid post to the full view of the enemy. Nevertheless Captain Malim worked on for twenty four hours attending single handed to more than four hundred cases.

[blackburnian]

Hi Andy

Excellent result - you can't believe how much this means to me. He never mentioned his service.

Do you know where he was when he was wounded? and also on his cause of discharge it reads "wounds - Para 392 xvi" - what did this mean?

Also would he have missed out on the Silver War Badge despite not being discharged until 16.05.1917?

Sincere thanks for all your work on this I truly appreciate it

Kind regards

Blackburnian

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Blackburnian,

Para 392 xvi refers to the Paragraph of Kings Regulations of 1912 which lays down the cause of discharge.

xvi denotes No longer physically fit for war service.

The badge was first issued in 1916-17 and continued until 1920. The criteria for entitlement was changed by a number of army orders. In general terms, entitlement was gained on leaving service through being disabled by wounds or sickness.

As to where, the 12th RB had been in billets in Laventie until taking over the front line trenches. The action took place at Pietre with the attack heading towards the Indian troops of the Meerut Division at Mauquissait. If you would care to send me a message with your e-mail address in it I will send the 12th Rifle Brigades war diary to you for July/August and September.

As mentioned, The Rifle Brigade were involved in the subsidiary attacks for Loo's at Bois Grenier for the 2nd RB and Bellewaarde for the 9th RB as well as the 10th, 11th & 12th RB at Pietre. Out of all these actions on the 25th the 9th RB really suffered very heavily with the R.S.M. breaking down in tears when he saw what was left of the battalion.

Unfortunately I cannot tell you what company he was in to go into more detail, but you now have a good overview.

On wounding and his return to the UK he would have been placed on the books of the 5th or 6th RB (Reserve), more likely the 5th RB at this time, in Kent (Isle of Sheppey) until medically discharged. As you can see by the timeline this can take sometime especially if there was a chance of his recovery and being sent overseas again. I wonder if he was initially treated by Captain Malim, who had gained the V.C. for his actions with the wounded??

Andy

[blackburnian]

Hi Andy

Yet again thank you for the wealth of information you have provided.

I tried to send you a PM but it said that I was unable to do this. Please advise.

Regards

Blackburnian

[blackburnian]

Hi Andy

The reason I enquired about the Silver War Badge was that when I looked for this, half a dozen Cumpsteys came up, but none was my Grandfather.

Regards

Blackburnian