Defining the Old Contemptibles

[Guest]

Having recently dived into the history of 1914 I am interested to know what might define an Old Contemtible.

I am aware if the original mistranslation that is the source of the moniker. My interest is who in the British Army could claim to be an Old Contemptible.... Is he a member of the first four Divisions of the BEF? ......The first six Divisions? .....Only a Regular? ....Would the many TF battalions that made their way to the front in 1914 'qualify' (for want of a much better word)..... Is the term bound by dates?.... If so which dates?.... Bound by the dates of the Mons Star? .... Would for example a Reservist arriving in time for The Defence of Festubert (23rd to 24th Nov 1914 or the Defence of Givenchy (20th to 21st Dec 1914) be reasonably justified in calling himself an Old Contemptible? .... Etc ad nauseam.

I would be very interested to hear any views on what defines an Old Contemtible. I realise there is no official recognition of the term. For what it is worth, I had always assumed the Mons Star was the qualifier but that implies anyone who arrived after First Ypres would not rightly be an Old Contemptible.

MG

[Guest]

" I am aware if the original mistranslation that is the source of the moniker. " I posted this from the Hereford Times - Saturday 11 November 1899 Click It looks like the phrase was in use at least 15 years previously. From the lack of response to my post, I assumed that this was a well known phrase used by someone else (that I should know about) Was it?

" The Chairman was called upon for a reply, and he said that he had been a volunteer for 20 years. As they all knew he left off as the senior major of the Hertfordshire Battalion. The order had now been issued for the Militia to do garrison duty in various parts of the country, and some significance must be attached to this. Their Continental neighbours had said that England had got a small army, but he wished them to know that they had rather more soldiers than appeared on the face of it. If they took the Regulars, the Indian Army, the Militia, the Volunteers, and the Yeomanry, they would find that they had over half-a-million men, and therefore it was not such a contemptible little army after all (hear, hear, and applause) " etc etc Hereford Times - Saturday 11 November 1899 "

I too assumed the Mons star was the mark of an " Old Contemptible "

Mike

[Sepoy]

To join the Old Contemptible Association (formed in 1925) you had to be a holder of the 1914 Star.

Whilst recently reviewing a 1914 Star holder's service records, there was a letter from the OCA requesting confirmation of the award of the 1914 Star - needless to state I did not make a note of the Soldiers details.

I assume the 22nd November, 1914 deadline marked the end of the First Battles of Ypres and the loss of many of the original members of the BEF.

Sepoy

[ulsterlad2]

John Lucy had this to say in 'There's a devil in the drum'

A large reinforcement of nearly five hundred men joined us, and the forty survivors scattered into various companies. This absorption of a few old Regulars into newly made platoons composed mainly of Reservists was my farewell to the old army of 1914, and to the last formation of the men who were later called 'Old Contemptibles' and 'Mons Angels'.

This large reinforcement/formation joined the 2nd Royal Irish Rifles on 21st November 1914. One day before the 1914 Star (5th Aug - 22nd Nov) cut off date.

[SiegeGunner]

" I am aware of the original mistranslation that is the source of the moniker. " I posted this from the Hereford Times - Saturday 11 November 1899 Click It looks like the phrase was in use at least 15 years previously. From the lack of response to my post, I assumed that this was a well known phrase used by someone else (that I should know about) Was it?

" The Chairman was called upon for a reply, and he said that he had been a volunteer for 20 years. As they all knew he left off as the senior major of the Hertfordshire Battalion. The order had now been issued for the Militia to do garrison duty in various parts of the country, and some significance must be attached to this. Their Continental neighbours had said that England had got a small army, but he wished them to know that they had rather more soldiers than appeared on the face of it. If they took the Regulars, the Indian Army, the Militia, the Volunteers, and the Yeomanry, they would find that they had over half-a-million men, and therefore it was not such a contemptible little army after all (hear, hear, and applause) " etc etc Hereford Times - Saturday 11 November 1899 "

This is absolutely fascinating, Mike. The Chairman is clearly refuting an assertion that it was a 'contemptible little army', but who made it?

[Guest]

This is absolutely fascinating, Mike. The Chairman is clearly refuting an assertion that it was a 'contemptible little army', but who made it?

Thanks Mick. I wasn't sure if this was common knowledge. I thought perhaps Napoleon-esque?

It would indeed be fascinating to know originally made it.

Mike

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Did one not have to qualify for the 1914 Star AND the "Aug~Nov" Bar ? (I think you did).

Tom

[Guest]

Gents...thanks for your comments so far.

Mike - I noted your earlier comment on a previous thread. I would rather this thread did not spiral into the origins of the expression. For the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter who first coined it. What matters is that the men of that narrow period of British military history in 1914 applied it to themselves. I think there is zero doubt on that point. I am specifically interested in who might consider themselves as an Old Contemptible and why.

Sepoy, Ulsterlad - this would appear to confirm one strong view and my own assumptions. The OCA 'qualifier' is particularly interesting

Tom - very interesting. Who was doing the 'qualifying'? ....the OCA?

MG

[Guest]

OK Martin, I will continue on the other thread.

Mike

[Keith Iles]

Hi Tom, I think you may be correct my Grandfather Rifleman John Thomas Iles 11345 2/KRRC (who you researched on my behalf) was an Old Contemptible and held the 1914 Star, Aug - Nov bar and Silver Rosette to his medal bar and I am also lucky to have possession of his Association Badge and his membership card.

Regards Keith

[Guest]

So.... it seems there is consensus that an Old Contemptible would have the 1914 Star and likely also to have the "Aug-Nov" bar. Does anyone know how many men qualified for the 1914 Star and of those what per cent or what number qualified for the bar? MG

[Guest]

Does anyone have any documentation relating to the OCA that might lay out the 'qualification' as indicated in Sepoy's post? I assume the OCA would have put something down in writing. I wonder who is the custodian of the papers today?

MG

[Guest]

Just found The Old Contemptibles it has spreadsheets and statistics that should be useful Facts & Figures

Mike

[Guest]

Mike - Many thanks. An interesting website that manages to get Suvla Bay into a website titled Old Contemptibles. That aside I see the blurb reiterates the Mons Star as the qualifier but does not provide the provenance. Surely there is a risk that this is just the author's view. I don't doubt that the 1914 Star defines an Old Contemptible but would be interested in seeing any documents from the OCA if they exist.

Separately I note a few sources mentioning the Bar and Rose and described variously as awarded to men "who had been under fire" or "men who had served within the range of the German Artillery" etc... These are subtley different. I am sure there is an ACI or something with the correct wording somewhere. Any ideas?

MG

[Rockdoc]

The bar was issued to those men who had been within range of the German guns within the qualifying period. It was not issued to those who were in the back areas and were in no such danger. However, all branches of the Army who were in France and Flanders at this time would have been part of the "Contemptible Little Army" and I would have said it would have been harsh to have refused them entry to the Association. Without the base wallahs, the men at the front couldn't function.

Keith

[Guest]

The bar was issued to those men who had been within range of the German guns within the qualifying period. It was not issued to those who were in the back areas and were in no such danger. However, all branches of the Army who were in France and Flanders at this time would have been part of the "Contemptible Little Army" and I would have said it would have been harsh to have refused them entry to the Association. Without the base wallahs, the men at the front couldn't function.

Keith

Keith - Was the wording exactly " men who had been within range of the German guns " ...or is this a paraphrase? Just curious to know if that was the wording in the relevant AO or ACI. The reason I ask is that if one looks at the Battlefield Nomenclature Committee's work, phases, operations, battles, affairs etc are generally all defined by geography and time. It just seems unlikely that the Bar and Rose was defined as within the range of the German guns as it seems to be too arbitrary. ...for example would that include the range of, say an aircraft flying deep into British held territory I wonder? The wording implies heavy artillery not aircraft. Just curious to know exactly how the authorities defined it. ...and it raises the next question: what was the maximum range of German artillery up to 22nd Nov 1914?

[Stoppage Drill]

Perhaps the giveaway is the fact that the OCA badge, replicated on their standards, has the "4 August - November 22" scroll ?

[Guest]

Indeed..everything is pointing towards these dates.

[horatio2]

The Fleet Order announcing the approval of the Clasp uses the following wording: " His Majesty the King having been pleased to approve the grant of a clasp to the Officers and men who have been awarded the "1914 Star" and who actually served under the fire of the enemy in France and Belgium between the 5th August 1914 and midnight, 22nd-23rd November 1914 ..."

The Fleet Order inviting applications for the Clasp required each applicant to state "the place and period under fire" but also includes the different wording that it applies to Officers and men "... who were actually present on duty on shore within the range of the enemies [sic] mobile artillery ..."

RN and RM qualified for 12,000 Stars and 5,000 Clasps (approx).

[Guest]

Private 1684 William John Wing, 1st Hertfordshire, talks about being an " Old Contemptible " at the beginning of reel 4 of this IWM Interview. Click

Mike

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Martin - updating my earlier answer. Alec A Purves in "The Medals Decorations & Orders of the Great War" says the ratio of issue of the Aug-Nov Bar was approximately 5 Stars with the Bar to every 7 without. But - Brophy and Partridge in "The Long Trail" define "Contemptibles, Old" as "the original expeditionary force".

I cannot remember where my believing that the Bar was required to be an OC originated, but I have a feeling that it was a "good source". - I'm now beginning to wonder

Tom

[Sepoy]

The trouble with using the "Date Bar" as being the qualifier, is that many men did not receive or apply for the bar despite being well and truly entitled to it. As an example L/8206 Private Henry Fairhead, 1st Battalion, The Queen's Regiment landed in France on 12th August, 1914. He was awarded the 1914 Star but according to his Medal Card and Medal Roll he did not receive the "Date Bar" despite being wounded in action on 17th September, 1914. The wound was serious enough for him to be discharged in February, 1915.

He is not the only example of those being entitled to receiving the bar despite being entitled. It would be interesting to hear whether other Forum Members have found examples of this.

I am certain that the qualifying factor for the OCA was simply the 1914 Star.

Sepoy

[hazelclark]

The trouble with using the "Date Bar" as being the qualifier, is that many men did not receive or apply for the bar despite being well and truly entitled to it. As an example L/8206 Private Henry Fairhead, 1st Battalion, The Queen's Regiment landed in France on 12th August, 1914. He was awarded the 1914 Star but according to his Medal Card and Medal Roll he did not receive the "Date Bar" despite being wounded in action on 17th September, 1914. The wound was serious enough for him to be discharged in February, 1915.

He is not the only example of those being entitled to receiving the bar despite being entitled. It would be interesting to hear whether other Forum Members have found examples of this.

I am certain that the qualifying factor for the OCA was simply the 1914 Star.

Sepoy

Doesn't look like my grandfather applied for a bar although he was with the 1st Seaforth when they landed from india in October 1914 and was wounded. He seems to have a clasp though.

H.

[Khaki]

Normally (in my experience) association's are registered with the government usually as non profit to ensure their tax exempt status. Has anyone researched the 'articles of association' where they are held or archived in the UK. The 'articles' may define exactly what you are seeking.

khaki

[Guest]

And the Treasurer's records from the 1950s onwards appear to be in the IWM....here and it would appear that the records of a number of the OCA regional or town branches survived here

And some British Pathe film footage of the funeral of the founder of the OCA here

More evidence of the strong link between the Mons Star dates and the OCA here