The Old Contemtibles

[deano]

Hi all, not really important, just wanted to know who was responsible for calling the BEF a 'comtemptible little army',

was it the Kaiser, as it says on the long long trail, or was it Sir Frederick Maurice of the War Office, as stated by Neil Oliver in his book 'Not Forgotten' ? ( page 72-73 )

Dean.

[SiegeGunner]

The Kaiser referred to "eine verächtlich kleine Armee", which someone at the time saw fit to translate as "a contemptible little army". What it actually means is "a contemptibly/derisorily small army". So the comment referred to the size of the BEF, not the quality of it.

Mick

[sjustice]

It was the Kaiser in his edict of 19th August.

I have always believed he did not actually mean the use of the word (verächtlich) as an adjective but as an adverb i.e. contemptibly instead of contemptible.

Still, whatever he meant the Regulars were not amused!

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[deano]

thanks guy's, what's Oliver on about then?

[centurion]

thanks guy's, what's Oliver on about then?

Perhaps Sir Fred was the man who translated the Kaisers comments into English if so he would have been the man who used the word contemptable rather than verächtlich

[deano]

that's what i was thinking Centurion, sadly Oliver doesn't list his source,

Dean.

[nigelfe]

I'll have to think about the source, but at least one author has stated that 'contemptible' did not refer to size but to them being regulars, ie 'mercenaries' who did not fight for the 'fatherland' as honourable German soldiers did but for money. Clearly he had some odd notions about the rates of pay.

[salesie]

Perhaps the Kaiser's knowledge of history was contemptibly small?

For me, the following poem by R.E. Vernede (killed leading his platoon in an attack on Havrincourt wood, 9th April 1917) just about sums up the Kaiser's own contemptible folly.

The Little Army

No British Attila is found upon our scroll of fame

A thing few Englishmen regret—we never liked the name

But where, in some Walhalla hall, the great dead Captains meet,

It's odds if Wellington stands down or Marlborough lacks a seat.

Why would they? Small their armies were maybe, but none would call

The battles they fought little ones, the victories they won small

Seeing that, ere they left the field, whate'er their toll might be,

Kings had gone down and Emperors given up their empery.

Nay, take a map and count the spots where this small force made shift

Blenheim, the Douro, Quatre Bras, Alma, Quebec, Rorke's Drift;

Mark that long road they trudged, adown the endless Afghan nights,

See where, at a sick hero's word, they climbed the Abraham's Heights.

Let others count their men by hordes ! We count them one by one

And many a warrior doffed his shoes before John Nicholson;

And many a slave bowed down his head and wept to know his doom

When Gordon stood and faced the pack that roared into Khartoum . . .

Oh War-lord of the Western Huns—that Army of Sir John's

Your legions know it, do they not ? They drove it back from Mons

'Twas small enough . . . too small perhaps . . . the British line is thin . . .

It won't seem quite so little when it's marching through Berlin.

R.E. Vernede 1915.

OK, so the BEF never actually marched through Berlin - but the point is well made I think.

Cheers-salesie

[Tony Lund]

Sergeant Sanderson’s diary, 2nd KRRC: September 7th 1914:

“Today we had read out to us the Kaiser’s statement about us being a ‘contemptible little army’ and it made us mad. Just let us get a chance at them. Today we cross a river, the Germans are on the other side. Our cavalry had captured a lot of transport and prisoners. Now we began to see where the Germans had been. Bottles - empty of course - everywhere, and beds and tables pulled out of houses, and windows smashed.”

September 8th: “Now things look lively. We forced the passage of the Petit Morin after breakfast by way of a charge, and found it held pretty strongly by the enemy. Our 18 pounders got going, and scattered them. They then tried to counter-attack, and we simply flew at them. We captured a lot of prisoners and some guns.”

So, it seems it was quite deliberately read out to the troops, and had the desired effect.

Tony.

[deano]

thanks for that Salesie, i too think the point is well made.

i wish Oliver had stated his source, because as Oliver himself say's, he alway's thought since his school day's that it was the Kaiser that had uttered the words.

Who was Sir Frederick Maurice?

Dean.

[truthergw]

The opportunity was taken to distort the Kaiser's message for propaganda purposes. It is memorable only because the troops chose to use it to describe themselves, especially in the post war comrades society. Propaganda was churned out by all combatant nations. Belgium was carpeted with violated nuns and bayonetted babies. Much of this was ephemeral but from a historian's point of view, can complicate the task of accurately assessing the effect of the war on the civilians. These tended to be reported in the same sources which printed the propaganda.

[centurion]

I'll have to think about the source, but at least one author has stated that 'contemptible' did not refer to size but to them being regulars, ie 'mercenaries' who did not fight for the 'fatherland' as honourable German soldiers did but for money. Clearly he had some odd notions about the rates of pay.

The German army had some regulars so seems unlikely

[SiegeGunner]

From www.firstworldwar.com

Army Order Issued by Emperor William II, 19 August 1914

It is my Royal and Imperial command that you concentrate your energies, for the immediate present, upon one single purpose, and that is that you address all your skill and all the valour of my soldiers to exterminate first the treacherous English and walk over General French's contemptible little army.

Headquarters, Aix-la-Chapelle

Source: Source Records of the Great War, Vol. II, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923

Allowing for the fact that 'contemptible little army' should be 'contemptibly little/small army', the meaning of the Kaiser's order to von Kluck is quite clear. He disparaged the size of the BEF, but nevertheless anticipated that it would take all von K's skill and all the valour of his soldiers to exterminate it. In other words, he acknowledged the quality of the BEF, but considered it was simply too small to withstand the German onslaught for long. In the event, the German onslaught proved less overwhelming, and the BEF more resilient, than the Kaiser anticipated.

In sum, the BEF was right to be piqued, but not for the reason often supposed.

Mick

[Chris_Baker]

Sir Frederick Maurice was Director of Military Operations. A splendid soldier and a fine military historian.

[truthergw]

The Kaiser's description of the BEF pales when compared to the remark by one of his staff on the same subject. When asked what his plans were to deal with the BEF, he said he would send a policeman to arrest them.

[deano]

cheers guy's for your responses,

Oliver states that Sir Frederick had made up the slur to get the Tommy's back's up.

i wasn't disputing that it was the Kaiser that said it,

i'm just surprised that a man of Oliver's calibre got it wrong in an otherwise half decent read and i thought i'd just ask,

thanks again gents,

regards

Dean.

[SiegeGunner]

I very much doubt whether Maurice made anything up. He perhaps saw or heard two renderings of the Kaiser's words – as 'contemptible' and 'contemptibly' – and advocated publicising the former because it was more likely to rev up the troops at a critical time. One wonders, however, how many ordinary soldiers actually knew what 'contemptible' means, and which more common word was used to explain it to those who did not.

Mick

[Jack Sheldon]

Mick makes a good point. I actually wonder if the exploitation of the word 'contemptible' was simply opportunistic and the result of hurried or poor translation. I have often noticed that much of what passed at the time for translation of captured documents was of a pretty scrappy standard. Comparison of the accepted original translation with the documents themselves is often quite revealing. Perhaps if a better linguist had tackled the job in the first place, the legend would have had no chance to grow.

I have also just noticed the reference to the British army being described as mercenaries. I cannot put my hand straight on an example, but I can certainly say that this was an attitude, or at least a usage, which reached a long way down in the German army. I have seen regimental historians using it as a term of contempt - which is as revealing and interesting as the interminable accusations in personal accounts that British soldiers in the attack were drunk. It almost seems as though the writers felt that their ultimate readership would expect them to belittle their enemies in that way.

Jack

[sjustice]

Jay Winter, a master in the field of remembrance, wrote a brief review of Oliver's (yes, the Scottish guy from Coast) book as part of an article (Unfriendly Fire) for the Times Literary Supplement in 2006. Musing on (then) recently published works following the commemoration of the Armistice in 2005, Winter says...

"Neil Oliver’s Not Forgotten is an even more personal account of his own deep encounter with the war his grandfather survived. Oliver’s book, accompanying a Channel 4 television series on the war, is essentially a book about families, and about the way they make remembrance happen. But what will be left, he muses, when families fade? Can remembrance survive the passage of time? Can books and television and the internet keep the story alive? Perhaps."

Something we all recognise, instinctively; and worry about, collectively.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Heid the Ba]

Belgium was carpeted with violated nuns and bayonetted babies.

That would be a great book title.

[pinevista]

Need your help. The nickname given to the professional BEF soldiers was "The Old Contemptibles", which is a given, was it from an order the Kaiser issued 19 August 1914 "exterminate .... the treacherous English and walk over General French's contemptible little army" I guess the question is, did the Kaiser really say it or is it based on rumor?

[squirrel]

A mistranslation - insignificant is a more accurate translation than contemptible but then, it wouldn't have been so newsworthy...a little "spin" perhaps?

[sotonmate]

You will now have me searching my photo files because I have an inkling that I saw such a reference mentioned in a message from one of our Generals in an address to his troops,and I photo'd it,among other messages I have come across whilst reading war diaries.

Watch this space,or not !

[pinevista]

Thanks, I knew I could count on the forum to find the answer!! So Squirrel, you are saying that the word contemptible was a translation error and the actual word was insignificant? So the Kaiser did send an order, which included the statement but it was translated incorrectly.

[David Filsell]

I have seen it translated as "contemptibly little', although I cannot give the source.