1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers

[mutley]

Hi

Im researching a soldier from 1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers who was a pre war territorial who then became a regular seeing service in both SOuth Africa and India prior to the Great War. He landed in France at Le Havre on 14 Aug 1914 and was taken prisoner some 9 days later, spending the rest of the war as a POW. Can anyone tell me what the Bn were doing at the time of his capture and also is it possible to identify where he was held prisoner?

Many thanks

Mutley

[GraemeClarke]

Mutley

From the WD

5.30 a.m. 22.8.14 LA LONGUEVILLE
Marched North. Crossed Franco-Belgian Frotntier and reached GHLIN about 1 p.m.

1 p.m. 22.8.14 GHLIN
Received orders to withdraw and take up entrenched positions on S. Bank of canal from JEMAPPES to MONS guarding the 4 crossings in that section

5 p.m. 22.8.14 JEMAPPES
Dispositions made – 2 companies of Northumberland Fusiliers were on Royal Scots Fusiliers left and 4th Battalion Royal Fusiliers on their Right.

11 a.m. 23.8.14 JEMAPPES
Germans attacked in force at 2 left crossings – Royal Scots Fusiliers held on until informed that units on both flanks had withdrawn and about 3 p.m. retired to N. edge of FRAMERIES. Casualties, Capt. Traill and Lieut. Stiven wounded – 50 rank and file killed and wounded. Before retirement all bridges were blown up and all boats sunk.

The Germans followed up our retirement through MONS over a bridge not successfully destroyed and opened fire from the coal dumps N of Frameries. They also had brought artillery close up to the firing line.

5 p.m. 23.8.14 FRAMERIES
There had been no time to entrench a position so the Battalion retired to the edge of the town where they were heavily shelled. At dusk the enemy withdrew and the Battalion went into billets. Casualties, Capt. Rose and Capt. Young wounded and missing – 100 Killed and Wounded

5 a.m. 26.8.14 INCHY
Battalion ordered to entrench a position with other units of 9th Brigade facing N. forming part of the General line. About 1 hour after arrival of Battalion on the position the German artillery opened fire on our artillery. Shortly after this Battalion was ordered to leave only 1 Company in the trenches and to retire to General Reserve. The action continued until 3 p.m. when the enemy by a strong flank movement forced back the right of the general line and the 9th Brigade were ordered to withdraw. Royal Scots Fusiliers forming Rear Guard. Casualties 8 wounded.

Regards,

Graeme

[mutley]

Graeme

many thanks, just what I was looking for.

Regards

Mutley

[sotonmate]

Kew have interview files in WO161 for some returning POWs,where they describe their place of internment and the conditions there,including the conduct of their captors.

[mutley]

Soton

thanks, do you know if these are alphabetically indexed? i will have to have a look the next time I go to Kew.

Thanks again

[spof]

Mutley

These records have been digitised and you can search and download from here

Glen

[AndrewThornton]

Here are some photographs from my collection that may be of interest. This is a photograph of the members of one of the platoons of "C" Company, taken at Robert's Heights in Pretoria in 1912.

A photograph taken at Robert's Heights at the Trooping the Colour ceremony to commemorate the 21st Fusiliers' defence of The Barrier at the Battle of Inkerman on 5 November 1854.

An informal group, again taken at Robert's Heights

Here is the informal group picture

[mutley]

Superb, thank you all, I'll pass the information on to the family.

[seaforth78]

Andrew,

In the first photo of C Coy's platoon would you by chance have the name of the Piper standing on the extreme left? Lowland Regiments were only allowed 5 official pipers on the establishment of each battalion so I am sure he could be ID'ed.

Interesting that in the Trooping the Colour photo that the Captain of the escort and the subaltern for the colour have their swords with their crosshilts (undress order) rather than the baskethilt. Usually the crosshilt was worn on active service.

Cheers,

S78

[WilliamRev]

In the first photo of C Coy's platoon would you by chance have the name of the Piper standing on the extreme left? Lowland Regiments were only allowed 5 official pipers on the establishment of each battalion so I am sure he could be ID'ed.

I thought that I had read in David Murrays "Music of the Scottish Regiments" that at the beginning of the war the Royal Scots Fusiliers had a Pipe Major and three other pipers, but I'm blowed if I can find the reference now, and the usual Pipe Major and four other pipers seems more likely. Certainly in 1912 1st Battalion RSF had a band of fifes and drums, not pipes, and there is a photo of it in David Murray's book on page 179.

As far as the identity of the kilted Pipe Corporal on the left of the photo, A bit of a guess - I wonder if he might be David Campbell who was from 1914 Pipe Major of the 1st Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers? He suffered a wound on 15th June 1915 at Hooge when standing on the parapet piping the battalion over-the-top. This was a disaster, because there were no pipers good enough to replace him (a really good piper was necessary to play the Piobaireachd in the officers mess). In November 1915 a replacement was procured from 1st Battalion The Royal Scots who gave them Piper J. McNab, an excellent player, who became Pipe Major J. McNab in 1st RFS for the duration of the war, and the officers had their Piobaireachd back,

William

Later edit: I now find the exact account of Pipe Major David Campbel in The Pipes of War by Seton and Grant:

"Although he had been wounded in the arm on the previous day Pipe Major Campbell played his battalion to the attack on the German position at Hooge on June 16, 1915. He played on right up to the German wire entanglements when, throwing his pipes aside, he caught up the bayonet of a comrade who had just been shot by a German officer and at once attacked the latter. He captured the officer."

[AndrewThornton]

Unfortunately, there are no names on the postcards, which belonged to Bandsman William McDivitt, who despite the name came from Walsall. Here is a photo of the Corps of Drums and the Pipes taken at Rangoon in 1909.

Dalhousie Park, Rangoon.

Unfortunately, there are no names on the postcards, which belonged to Bandsman William McDivitt, who despite the name came from Walsall. Here is a photo of the Corps of Drums and the Pipes taken at Rangoon in 1909.

Dalhousie Park, Rangoon.

[AndrewThornton]

Pipers and the Band of the 1st Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers, at Gosport in 1914

[WilliamRev]

The pipers appear have a different glengarry badge - I wonder if they have been borrowed from another unit for the occassion? Is there any possibliyt of a close-up scan one? If they are Royal Scots Fusiliers, but just with a piper's glengarry badge, then that is a Pipe Major plus seven pipers - so I was completely wrong about the numbers!

Andrew, these really are wonderful photos, full of fascinating details. As you can see from my avatar I am particularly interested in 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers during the war: have you any more photos from 1914 or later of the battalion?

William

[WilliamRev]

The pipers appear have a different glengarry badge - I wonder if they have been borrowed from another unit for the occassion? Is there any possibliyt of a close-up scan one? If they are Royal Scots Fusiliers, but just with a piper's glengarry badge, then that is a Pipe Major plus seven pipers - so I was completely wrong about the numbers!

I am answering my own question - a close-up of a postcard I have of Royal Scots FUsilier men cica 1900 shows that the pipers do indeed have a different glengarry badge.

William

[AndrewThornton]

Here is another photo, this time of a detachment of signallers on the veldt and mounted infantrymen at the Mounted Infantry School at Harrismith

[seaforth78]

The pipers appear have a different glengarry badge - I wonder if they have been borrowed from another unit for the occassion? Is there any possibliyt of a close-up scan one? If they are Royal Scots Fusiliers, but just with a piper's glengarry badge, then that is a Pipe Major plus seven pipers - so I was completely wrong about the numbers!

Andrew, these really are wonderful photos, full of fascinating details. As you can see from my avatar I am particularly interested in 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers during the war: have you any more photos from 1914 or later of the battalion?

William

Hi Steve and Will,

I don't have Colonel Murray's book to hand to look, and my memory may play me at fault, but the Lowland Regiments did not have their pipers recognised on the strength of the Battalion until 1918 (!) So, actually, all the pipers would be borne on the expense of the officers. That is to say the officers were responsible for their upkeep and uniforms, pipes etc, unlike the Highland Regiments that had their 5 pipers officially recognised by the WO in 1881. They only were to have an official establishment of 5 pipers. That's why if you look at medals or Regimental Histories you will see pipers who look outwardly and dress as such but are given the appointment of Private.

[mutley]

These photos are great, the chap in question was a Drummer so its possible he is in some of these photos.

thanks gain to everyone

[Guest Leither]

Hi

I’m researching 14729 William J Wilson, 1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers who was a listed as wounded on 13 Feb 1915. He was sent to France, 3 Dec 1914. Can anyone tell me where the Bn were and what they were doing at the time he was wounded?

From a search of RSF regimental numbers 14719 to 14739 it would appear he enlisted sometime between 24-26 Oct 1914, which gives only a month of training before being sent into action. Most of the others who enrolled at the depot at this time were assigned to the 6/7 RSF and were not sent to France until 11 May 1915. What could be the reasons for such a short training period?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Leither

[WilliamRev]

Leither

Ist Royal Scots Fusiliers didn't suffer any casualties on the 13th Feb 1915.......but I have found your man:

War Diary on the 24th Jan 1915 : [at Westoutre] "Went into trenches & took over S2 from H.A.C., S3 F4-05-8-9 & G1 from 3rd Worcersters Reg Casualties wounded no 12729 Pte W. Wilson, No 11743 Pte J. McKenna, No 7072 Pte H. Carlan."

There are quite a few soldiers who joined 1st RSF in autumn 1914, who on the face of it look as though they only had a month of training - the fact that they were sent to a regular battalion (and a very choosy one at that), and not with their pals to a service battalion for more training, leads me to think that they had all been experienced in OTCs or were reservists or other wise had prior training.

William

Later edit: Just to flesh things out a little more: (1) the sector where 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers (9th Brigade, 3rd Division) were stationed was at Kemmel, which is about 6 miles south-south-west of Ypres. (2) As far as I know, there are absolutely no cases of men being trained for as little as one month and then being sent to France Flanders at this stage of the war. I think that regimental numbers can be very misleading in attempts to provide a chronology of recruitment and training. (3) I suspect that the date that you have for his wounding (13th Feb 1915) is possibly the date when he was transferred from a Field Hospital to a Casualty Clearing Station, or perhaps the date on which he was repatriated.

[Guest Leither]

William

Thank you so much, what was just the sort of information I was looking for. I’ve been able to find a Kemmel region trench map for Spring 1915 which shows the location of G1; the F trenches being adjoining and to the south.

The injury date I had of 13 Feb 1915 is that reported in the "The Scotsman” of 6 Mar 1915, so possibly not too surprising that it was in error given the time it would have taken for the information to filter back. The injury was to his leg leaving a hole the size of a “child’s fist” and a slight limp. His Medal Card states he was discharged on 1 Aug 1915. Given the fate of many of those with regimental numbers close to him - especially on 26 Sep 1915 - some might consider him fortunate!

As to the training, at the time of discharge he would have been 35yrs old so he may well have had some previously military experience prior to enlisting, but I can find no record of this. As a private I would have thought OTC was unlikely, if he were a reservist would this have been with the RSF or an associated regiment? Also the RSF mainly seems to recruit from the Glasgow region, prior to enlisting WJW was a fisherman working out of Granton, Edinburgh. I believe, although I have no proof, that he would have enlisted in Edinburgh and was wondering if this influenced in any way him being assigned to a regular Bn rather than a service one?

Once again thank you for help.

Leither

[WilliamRev]

Leither

Yes, I think that you are right about Wilson being fortunate to be out of the war: 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers had 71 officers and 1,643 men killed during the war, which makes it among the battalions with the highest casualties - hardly anyone who was there in 1914 was still with them at the end of the war.

I agree with you that as a private in a Regular battalion Wilson is perhaps unlikely to have been in an OTC - Territorial battalions were full of public schoolboys and university students as privates (such as my medical-student grandfather in 5th Scottish Rifles 1914-15, before commission into 1st RSF) - but he might have prior service in the regular army at some point, and if not then perhaps a pre-war territorial battalion. In any case, Lieut Colonel Forbes, in command of the 3rd Royal Scots Fusiliers which trained men for 1st RSF, wrote after the war that he had a mere fourteen weeks to turn a civilian into a soldier, and implies that he drove them very hard indeed because this was considered a very short amount of time. So a mere month's training is really out of the question.

The regular battalions (!st and 2nd) of the Royal Scots Fusiliers were provided with men by the 3rd Battalion RSF, which was based throughout the war at Camp Fort Matilda, between the twin towns of Greenock and Gourock (and close to, but not part of, Fort Matilda - a coastal fort manned by the Royal Garrison Artillery). 3rd RSF recruited throughout Scotland and England (at least a third of their men were from England - many from the Midlands and the Kent and Sussex coast), and loads from both Glasgow and Edinburgh, so no surprise that Wilson came from Edinburgh.. The territorial and New Army battalions of the Royal Scots Fusiliers seem to me to have been been far more Scottish than the Regular ones, as vol. 26 (Royal Scots Fusiliers) of Soldiers Died in the Great War seems to indicate.

William

[Ron Abbott]

I'm also interested in the Pipes and Drums of the 1st Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Two of the brothers of one of my ancestors lost their lives in WW1 and one was a piper in 1 RSF, namely L/CPL Adam Horsburgh Porteous (9993).

He is mentioned on the following website :-

http://www.edinburghs-war.ed.ac.uk/system/files/PDF_gorgie_casualties.pdf

Cut and pasted.......

"Corp Adam Horsburgh Porteous (23) No. 9993, piper, 1, 2 R. Scots Fusiliers. At

the outbreak of the War, he was home on leave from Africa. Sent to France, Aug

1914. Served six years, and was the second piper in his battalion. Wounded three

times. DoW 30 Jul 1915, Wharncliffe War Hosp, Sheffield. NMC. Eldest son of

Alexander Porteous, carter, & Magdaline Porteous, 6 Downfield Place, late of Dewar

Place. His brother, Pte Alexander Porteous, Gordon Hdrs, KiA 6 Sep 1916. EEN 3

Aug 1915 & 4 Oct 1916. TED 7 Aug 1915."

He's not mentioned in The Pipes of War by Seton and Grant.

The CWGC lists him as having been 1st Bn. RSF as does his Medal Rolls Card.

I've searched the various bagpipe tune indices but again there is no mention of him having composed any published tunes.

However, given that it would appear that L/CPL Adam Porteous joined the army in 1909 and had been in South Africa prior to going to France in 1914, I wonder if that is him at the left side of the photograph taken in 1912 (the piper with the two overseas service chevrons)?

By coincidence, my (late) godfather would later become Pipe Major of the RSF and in due course, his son became Pipe-Major of the RHF.

[Ron Abbott]

Forgot....I found this advertised on ebay. It may be what the pipers are wearing (?) (RSF - 21st of foot):-

[seaforth78]

Is this the badge that the Pipers wore pre-1881?

[Ron Abbott]

Someone is certainly saying that it is :-

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/White-Metal-PIPERS-CAP-BADGE-21st-ROYAL-SCOTS-FUSILIERS-pre-1881-Two-lugs-/370988566207?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item5660a446bf

I think that may well be the badge that the pipers are wearing in the photo.

I believe the pipers of the 2nd Battalion wore a different cap badge, one that looked more like a 'clan badge'.

I may be wrong but officially, did the regiment not become the RSF (previously being the Royal North British Fusiliers) in 1881, or was it in 1871 or 1877 as recorded by some sources?