Hospital Train livery

[centurion]

No 37 was built to the standard design for Ambulance trains to serve overseas. Photos of its interior suggest that inside they were painted in a light cream

With redard to the original 14 trains used in Britain some companies only supplied half a train and 2 half trains would be combined to make a whole one so there would be some trains in mixed liveries.

[GRANVILLE]

Valid points, thanks for this

No 37 was built to the standard design for Ambulance trains to serve overseas. Photos of its interior suggest that inside they were painted in a light cream

With redard to the original 14 trains used in Britain some companies only supplied half a train and 2 half trains would be combined to make a whole one so there would be some trains in mixed liveries.

Valid points, thanks for this.

David

[bill24chev]

If the various railway companies produced the "Colour" post cards would they perhaps have had the coaches "coloured" in their own rolling stock livery ecpecialy if the rollingstock was to a specific ROD design and probably standard colour scheme?

I would howeverexpect the initial 14 origional trains would have been in the companies livery.

I would have thought that a train going from say Southampton to the Hospital at Whalley in Lancashire would not neccessarily have LSW or L&Y liveried coaches, It would depemd on which companys train was the next available. On the journey North it would probably have been hauled by locomotives from a number of companys such as LSWR, LNWR, Gt Central, Midland and L&Y, depending on the route taken. In pre Beeching days the alyernatives were endless. The engine that arrived with the train may not have been an L&Y engine depending on when the last engine change was made, it would however have had an L&Y driver and fireman though..

[centurion]

If the various railway companies produced the "Colour" post cards would they perhaps have had the coaches "coloured" in their own rolling stock livery ecpecialy if the rollingstock was to a specific ROD design and probably standard colour scheme?

I would howeverexpect the initial 14 origional trains would have been in the companies livery.

I would have thought that a train going from say Southampton to the Hospital at Whalley in Lancashire would not neccessarily have LSW or L&Y liveried coaches, It would depemd on which companys train was the next available. On the journey North it would probably have been hauled by locomotives from a number of companys such as LSWR, LNWR, Gt Central, Midland and L&Y, depending on the route taken. In pre Beeching days the alyernatives were endless. The engine that arrived with the train may not have been an L&Y engine depending on when the last engine change was made, it would however have had an L&Y driver and fireman though..

You didn't read what I said in the earlier posts - there were two lots of construction, one to bring the trains used in Britain up to 20 and the other to produce trains for use in France. It was the second set that were to a Railway Executive committee (not ROD) design, The first lot (seven in all) produced much more quickly, were almost certainly copies of the 14 already built. The ones that went to France, Egypt and Mesopotamia would be in ROD livery the ones that stayed in Britain in the companies' liveries.

[centurion]

Movements of Ambulance trains in Britain were published in advance in the press so that well wishers could cheer them on passing and bring gifts to the stations at which they made scheduled stops. Shunting and changes of locomotive were avoided as far as practical to avoid jolting the patients (which could reopen wounds). These trains were given priority over all other British traffic. It would therefore seem probable that once a train (engine(s) and coaches) was assembled it would stay together until it delivered its patients to the receiving stations even if this meant an engine in a "foreign" livery passing over another company's tracks.

[bill24chev]

Centurian

Many of the engines available in 1914-18 would not have the range to go from Dover/Folkstone/Southampton to the North of England and especially Scotland. Engines of the LSWR, LCDR, South Eastern or LB &SCR were further hadicapped by not having the ability to use the water troughs of the other railway companies, There were no water troughs on these railways so no need for tank engines or tenders to be fitted to use them.

There may also have been problems with the slightly different "Loading Gauge" of the different companies and possible weight restrictions on some routes.

A good driver could uncouple or couple up with very little disturbance to the coaches and I would expectas these trains had express priority the most experienced top link crews would normally man the engines..

As I said a "foreign" engine may deliver the train to its final destination. for example a LNWR or Midland engine may have turned up in L&Y territory because an engine change at Crewe or Derby would be capable of delivering a train to Lancashire or Yorkshire and both LNWR and MR operated within those counties.

[centurion]

I did say "as far as practical" I would repeat engine changes were avoided if at all possible - possibly not all drivers were as good as that. Locos could of course stop to take on water.

The following figures may be of interest

Ambulance Trains from Southampton Docks August 24 1914 - Dec 31st 1918 - 7,822
Total Patients Carried 1,234,248
Non British Army patients carried
Indian Army 12,857
Belgian Army 9,242
US forces 8,488
German Army 27,656
KuK Army 248
And one shouldn't forget
Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps 233.

This does not include patients taken first to the clearing hospital at Eastleigh Southampton and later distributed to other hospitals via Eastleigh station.

Total number of Ambulance trains on the South Western network (including from Eastleigh and Dover) 10,332
Total patients carried 1,848,623

[Sue Light]

For anyone who wants to read for themselves about railways in the UK during the Great War, including ambulance trains, both of Edwin Pratt's volumes 'British Railways and the Great War' are available free on Archive.org, and can be accessed here - download to Kindle available, but you do need a full version as well to take advantage of all the maps and charts:

British Railways and the Great War, Volume 1

British Railways and the Great War, Volume 2

Sue

[GRANVILLE]

Thank you very much Sue - very helpful.

David

[T8HANTS]

One of the carriages at the Isle of Wight Steam Railway at Havenstreet runs on what was a WW1 ambulance carriage underframe. This vehicle was converted by Southern Railway into a non-corridor carriage by having a new body built ontop of the old frame. Rumour has it that the underframe saw service in France, but I think it is rumour.

G

[mtaylor]

From publicity for the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway Cumbria

"This unique accommodation is situated on the station complex at Ravenglass, just a short stroll from

the shore. Two Pullman coaches, ‘Elvira’ and ‘Maid of Kent’, and the very different Hilton Cottage have

personality aplenty and are ideally placed for those wanting a boy’s own adventure – whatever their

age or gender! ‘Elvira’ and ‘Maid of Kent’ were originally built as ambulance cars during the First World War and

both sleep up to six people in three separate bedrooms."

[Tess Walker]

Photographs of Ambulance trains are available to view in the Railway Studies Collection in Newton Abbot's Passmore Edwards Centre. Here also are the Railway Company magazines and books within which you will find reference to these trains. See: devon.gov.uk/passmoreedwardscentre for opening hours, location etc; or e-mail: railway.library@devon.gov.uk ;or phone: 01392 384012

[Glen]

There are a number of photographs - both internal and external in the Horwich Works collection of L&Y photos here

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photogallery?group=Horwich

You will have to scroll through and read the descriptions to find the ones of interest as they do not appear to be in any order.

One of the photos shows a L&Y train at Tilbury with a GER loco so would back up the engine change posts above.

[GRANVILLE]

Excellent link to exceptional photos - thanks Glen.

David

[Glen]

When looking through the other collections, I noted that there is in fact an order - Alphabetical by the first word!

Found a few more in the Derby Collection - http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photogallery?group=Derby look under "Ambulance" and "Inside"

[GRANVILLE]

Cheers Glen. Coming from Derby as I do, this link is even more fascinating to me.

David

[CommanderChuff]

Can anyone offer any information on the actual colour schemes/liveries which Hospital trains were turned out in? Am keen to find as much detail as possible, such as insignia, numbering, information affixed to sides of coaches etc etc.

David

This is coming a little late to the original request but here is my summary of AT liveries which I have been collecting over the years. All of the interiors were white enamelled. I am currently building a set of Netley coaches in WW1 and WW2 livereis for my layout of Folkstone Harbour.

Train Era Description Colour Scheme Ambulance Trains 1900-1919 Netley Coaches 1900 ex LSWR fruit vans French grey top panels, khaki brown on the lower panels, picked out in yellow and fine lined in red, internal white enamel. PCHT 1915 purpose built 36 foot coaches - narrow gauge of 3ft 6in Princess Christian Hospital Train: white overall, red cross emblems, British Union flag and Red Cross on brackets at the end on the roof in accorance with Geneva Convention. HT4 1910 White Train, South Africin railways stock. all over white, small red crosses; US Ambulance 1914 American Train brown with US flags and red crosses CAT 1 1914 Continental Ambulance Train (Improvised) Green; French and Belgian stock; CAT 2 1914 Continental Ambulance Train (Standard) Khaki Brown; standard LMS and GWR stock, some SR and LNER; PCHT 1915 purpose built 55 foot coaches - standard gauge Princess Christian Hospital Train: Exterior French grey, mouldings in brown with vermillion lines HAT 1916 Home Ambulance Train Vehicles in the CET's remained the property of the owning company ; painted in the liveries of the railway. The vehicles were identified as CET cars by a 2 inch wide, 24 inch long yellow stripe on the end vertical corners of the sides of each vehicle; no red cross markings; NAT 1917 Naval Ambulance Train Warship grey; Ambulance Trains 1939-1945 CET 1940 Casualty Evacuation Train Vehicles in the CET's remained the property of the owning company ; painted in the liveries of the railway. The vehicles were identified as CET cars by a 2 inch wide, 24 inch long yellow stripe on the end vertical corners of the sides of each vehicle; no red cross markings; Netley Coaches 1940 Home Ambulance Train Khaki Green; ex LSWR Fruit vans. HET 1940 Hospital Evacuation Train Improvised temporary CETs; same livery as CET; HAT 1941 Home Ambulance Train Khaki Green: white roof, red cross on white square, centre sides and roof; OAT1 1942 Overseas Ambulance Train Khaki Green: white roof, red cross on white square, centre sides and roof; OAT2 1942 Overseas Ambulance Train US Olive Drab: gray roof, red cross on white square, centre sides and roof; Unit 1942 single coaches used in service trains Khaki green

[GRANVILLE]

Thank you David, much appreciated.

David