GRANVILLE Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Can anyone offer any information on the actual colour schemes/liveries which Hospital trains were turned out in? Am keen to find as much detail as possible, such as insignia, numbering, information affixed to sides of coaches etc etc. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Can anyone offer any information on the actual colour schemes/liveries which Hospital trains were turned out in? Am keen to find as much detail as possible, such as insignia, numbering, information affixed to sides of coaches etc etc. David David, Here is a WW1 period coloured postcard showing an Ambulance/Hospital train, and also another of a brand new Ambulance Train photographed at Derby, which shows some of the ' Midland ' coach livery. Also, I just posted an excellent detailed drawing of the internal lay-out of an Ambulance Train on my WW1 Military Motors Thread, where there are also some other photographs of the markings on the sides of the Ambulance Train coaches. Hope these help. Regards. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 A similar postcard showing a GWR Ambulance Train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 I find it curious that these all show ambulance trains on British metals - the Lancashire & Yorkshire, Midland and Great Western Railways. The Midland coaches are conversions of their 1905 clerestory stock. There is some info on the Midland coaches at http://www.51l.co.uk/downloads/mrclerestory.PDF Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 There were significant ambulance train movements on British lines. Wounded coming back from France were landed at a relatively small number of ports but dispersed to hospitals and other treatment centres all over the Britsh Isles. Almost all of this was done by hospital train. In France British wounded tended to travel by trains operated by ROD and the opposite happened - patients from a wide variety of locations would concentrate of no more that 3 or 4 ports (and mainly Calais and Boulogne). The following list shows all the stations receiving hospital trains from Southampton and Dover during the war AberdeenAddison RoadAintreeAldershotAmpthillAvpnmouthAxminsterBangourBasingstokeBathBelmontBentleyBerringtonBerwickBexhillBickleyBirkenheadBirminghamBletchleyBournemouthBoscombeBradfordBrentwoodBrightonBristolBrockenhurstBroctonBromley SouthBrookwoodBulfordBury St.Edmunds.CambridgeCambuslangCanterburyCardiffCarlisleCatfordCharing CrossChathamChelmsfordChelseaCheltenhamChesterChichesterChislehurstChristchurchGlacton-on-SeaClandonClapham Jet.ColchesterCoshamCourt SartCoventryCreweCromerDealDerbyDevizesDevonportDewsburyDorchesterDundeeDurhamEastbourneEast CroydonEastleighEdmontonEdinburghEghamEpsomExeterFamboroughFavershamFawkhamFovant RailheadFrattonGillinghamGlasgowGloucesterGosforthGosportGranthamGravesendGreenockGreenwichGuildfordHalesworthHaUfaxHamworthy Jet.HarlowHarrogateHayTvards HeathHerefordHeme BayHigh BarnetHolmwoodHuddersfieldInghamIngress Park Sdg.IpswichKeighleyKendalLancasterLeedsLeen ValleyLeicesterLeighLichfieldLincolnLiphookLiverpoolLyme RegisLjrmingeMaidstoneMalmesburyManchesterMargate SandsMayfieldMinster Jet.NapsburyNeathNetleyNew BarnetNewbury ParkNewcastle-onTyneNewcastle-unde rLymeNewmarketNewportNewton AbbotNorthamptonNorwich ThorpeNottinghamOrpingtonOswestryOxfordPaddingtonPaigntonPaisleyPenrithPerthPljrmouthPoolePortsmouthPrestonRamsgateReadingRuberySafEron WaldenSalisburySally Oak (Selly Oak?)SheffieldSherbourneShornclifieShrewsburySidcupSidmouthSittingbourneSnaresbrookSouthallSouthendSouthportStaffordStoke-on-TrentStourbridgeStratfordStratford-onAvonStrathpefEerSunderlandTaplowTemplecombeTidworthTonbridgeTorquayTorreVictoria (London)WalmerWaltham CrossWalton-onThamesWarminsterWarrington ArpleyWaterloo(London)Well HallWest CroydonWest GosforthWest MarinaWeymouthWhalleyWhitchurchWillesdenWimborneWinchesterWindermereWindsorWitleyWrexhamYork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 "The following quote gives a good example of the sort of thing going on on a regular basis The distances travelled by a considerable proportion of the ambulance trains in the interests of a widespread distribution of the wounded wll, perhaps, be still better understood if the fact is added that between August, 1914, and November, 1918, the number of loaded military ambulance trains which ran over the lines of the Caledonian Railway Company was 962, namely, 763 worked to Scotland from Southampton and 199 which had come from Dover. The destinations of the trains were : Glasgow, 522 ;Edinburgh,97 ; Perth,73 ; Dundee, 86 ;and Aberdeen, 184. After having discharged their load, ll these trains travelled back over the Caledonian lines on their return to the port irom which they had started. The company had, therefore, to deal with 962 ambulance trains twice over, making a sum total of 1,924." Just one railway company out of many Avommouth was another port that landed many wounded, "While Southampton and Dover were the- ports at which sick and wounded troops mainly arrived in this country for conveyance to inland hospitals by ambulance trains, various other ports were also utilised, though to a much less extent. Avonmouth, Devonport and Liverpool were taken advantage of more especially in regard to cases from the Mediterranean and the Far East. At Avonmouth, for example, 1,600 officers and 23,500 men—a total of 25,100 wounded—were received. They were taken on mainly to London, Bristol or Manchester. In addition to these, 660 officers and 12,000 men from various camps in England were conveyed to Avonmouth for oversea destinations. Altogether over 200 loaded ambulance trains were dealt with at the port during the war." The number of ambulance trains all in the liveries of the different railway companies was large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 The above posts describe waht was going on on a regular basis but special arrangements were made for major battles "Other emergency ambulance trains were made up at, or sent to,Southampton as required to meet the inevitable pressure occurring from time to time, and thus it was, for instance, that the rush on July 7th,1917, was successfully handled. Thirteen ambulance trains used on that occasion were supplemented by nine emergency corridor trains (the running of second trips increasing the number of train journeys to twenty-nine), and, also, by twenty-four separate corridor carriages and sixteen vans added to the regular trains. In this way the company were able, on the day in question, and in addition to all the other transport demands made upon them, to dispatch from Southampton, for distribution among the hospitals of England and Scotland, no fewer than 6,174 sick and wounded in the course of twenty-four hours." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 23 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Chaps. All of the above info is enormously helpful. I have close contact with a model train making company and they are very inclined towards the production of a WW1 Hospital Train hence the enquiry. It was seeing LF's excellent post of the internal layout, that got me going on the subject. Do you think it safe to assume that the liveries were standard to each company (i.e. the Midland posted above) with just the addition of Red Cross symbols etc? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 It was seeing LF's excellent post of the internal layout, that got me going on the subject. Do you think it safe to assume that the liveries were standard to each company (i.e. the Midland posted above) with just the addition of Red Cross symbols etc? David David, I am pleased you found the Ambulance Train internal layout useful, it was the only one I had ever seen. Obviously, as many of the WW1 period photographs are in black and white, it is hard to say what the livery colours were. The coloured postcards should be a good clue, and knowing how proud those Railway Companies were of their individual identities which were reflected in their particular locomotives/carriages' livery, I am sure those individual liveries were reflected in the Ambulance Trains a particular Railway Company produced. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 23 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2013 David, I am pleased you found the Ambulance Train internal layout useful, it was the only one I had ever seen. Obviously, as many of the WW1 period photographs are in black and white, it is hard to say what the livery colours were. The coloured postcards should be a good clue, and knowing how proud those Railway Companies were of their individual identities which were reflected in their particular locomotives/carriages' livery, I am sure those individual liveries were reflected in the Ambulance Trains a particular Railway Company produced. Regards, LF I sense that this sums it up very nicely. If anyone else turns up a good photo of Hospital Train in service, please share, much appreciated. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 David, I am pleased you found the Ambulance Train internal layout useful, it was the only one I had ever seen. Obviously, as many of the WW1 period photographs are in black and white, it is hard to say what the livery colours were. The coloured postcards should be a good clue, and knowing how proud those Railway Companies were of their individual identities which were reflected in their particular locomotives/carriages' livery, I am sure those individual liveries were reflected in the Ambulance Trains a particular Railway Company produced. Regards, LF You don't need coloured photos - in the UK hospital trains were in the livery of the raiway company that ran them. Railway company liveries are already extensively documented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 23 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2013 I think this is what has come out of me asking the question in that I wondered if the companies turned the coaches out in some sort of specific Hospital Train colour scheme, bearing in mind, it looks as if many were fully converted or even made from new for the purpose, but as you say, it would appear they were turned out in standard livery with appropriate signage applied. Cheers all. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Chaps. All of the above info is enormously helpful. I have close contact with a model train making company and they are very inclined towards the production of a WW1 Hospital Train hence the enquiry. David Oooh having just reanimated some of my childhood Hornby stuff for my son --- I would be interested in knowing if this goes any further... GWR hospital train with correct period loco and coaches would be an interesting (and marginally justifiable) addition! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 I think this is what has come out of me asking the question in that I wondered if the companies turned the coaches out in some sort of specific Hospital Train colour scheme, bearing in mind, it looks as if many were fully converted or even made from new for the purpose, but as you say, it would appear they were turned out in standard livery with appropriate signage applied. Cheers all. But not of course for overseas service on the Western Front Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 But not of course for overseas service on the Western Front Sue In which case they appear to be in ROD 'colours'. Ambulance trains in France were longer (16 carriages) and more extensively modified as patients were on them for longer and so more facilities were required. Maximum stay on a train in Britain was 48 hours and often less than 24 (same day delivery) whereas it could take up tp 3 days or more to get to a channel port (these were not expresses and the network was very congested) . Ambulance trains can be spotted by the double doors in the middle of the carriages which open outwards to allow the loading and un loading of stretchers. However there were some carriages for walking wounded and these were more conventional. There were 30 British Ambulance trains in France, Egypt and Mesopotamia all built to a design produced by a Railway Executive committee in May 1915 but built by individual railway companies and shipped out. The Americans eventually had a further 19 trains built to the same design. Al in all 792 bogie based ambulance coaches were supplied to British and American services by British railway companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 24 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Is it to be assumed therefore that Ambulance Train coaches operating The Western Front would be in the same ROD khaki brown colour that several locomotives have been preserved in? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 They were known colloquially as the 'khaki trains' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Is it to be assumed therefore that Ambulance Train coaches operating The Western Front would be in the same ROD khaki brown colour that several locomotives have been preserved in? David The tonal values in black and white photos would suggest so. Open double doors folded back suggest that the inside was painted in a lighter colour but not white - light grey or cream perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwp2007 Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 don't know if you have seen the postcards on the link below, also on the same site for 75p you can download a pdf file of the Lancashire and yorkshire railway hospital trains booklet, John. http://www.worldwar1postcards.com/ambulance-trains.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 May Wedderburn Cannan was a VAD in Rouen, and one stanza of her poem named after the city goes:- "Can I forget the passage from the cool white-bedded Aid PostPast the long sun-blistered coaches of the khaki Red Cross trainTo the truck train full of wounded, and the weariness and laughterAnd “Good-bye, and thank you, Sister”, and the empty yards again?" Would that suggest old rolling stock overpainted? Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 24 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2013 John, really helpful link - thanks for this. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 24 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2013 May Wedderburn Cannan was a VAD in Rouen, and one stanza of her poem named after the city goes:- "Can I forget the passage from the cool white-bedded Aid Post Past the long sun-blistered coaches of the khaki Red Cross train To the truck train full of wounded, and the weariness and laughter And “Good-bye, and thank you, Sister”, and the empty yards again?" Would that suggest old rolling stock overpainted? Regards, MikB I think until the 'made for the purpose' trains were produced then the early ones will almost certainly have been over-painted, original livery coach/wagon stock, but by the time the later ones were being made, they must surely have been given a ROD Khaki coachwork from the outset? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Try photographs in record class "RAIL" at TNA. I don't know much about the class but have recently been delving into the indexes / files looking for photos of munitions made in railway works during the war - with some good results. Along the way I have seen some very good photos of hospital trains, coaches, interiors etc etc. Quality of the photos is often A1+. Cant be too specific but to start try classes RAIL 227, 253, 343, 1020. - There's probably more. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 There was some planning for war and 14 purpose made trains from the L&SWR, LNWE GWR, L&YR, GER, GCR and the Red Cross were available for the army before the outbreak of war all AFAIK in the liveries of the supplying companies. The Navy had omitted to make provision assuming that they would transport wounded by Hospital Ship and overlooking that some hospitals were inland etc. These were 5 coach trains. Initially they operated in Britain but in Feb 1915 the Red Cross Train was sent to France . 2 of the trains were allocated to the RN whilst trains they ordered were being built. Trains in France, other than the Red Cross one appear initially to have been improvised from local rolling stock but I have to admit that the accounts I have seen are somewhat reticent over this. It was realised that this would be inadequate and a home and an overseas ambulance train committee were organised. The home one was quickly off the mark and soon there were 20 army ambulance trains in operation in Britain and additional emergency trains could be converted from existing rolling stock to meet peaks arising out of battles. These all appeared in the livery of the seven companies that operated them, The overseas committee took longer - going to France to assess needs but arrived at the solution I've posted earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Ambulance Train No 37 built by the North Eastern Railway is described as being completed in khaki with of course the red cross on white background. As for the khaki coloured ROD locomotives, apart from the preserved 5322 which was outshopped in khaki for a while, there was no definite proof for this, and it seems grey is more likely - certainly the North Eastern Railway T1 Class locomotives were repainted in grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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