1st Battalion Devonshire Regiment - Soldiers Died Information.

[Laird of Camster]

Ladies & Gents,

Has anyone got a copy of Soldiers Died for the Devons? I`m trying to ascertain what circumstances I`m looking at for a casualty (KIA or DOW or indeed just plain old DIED). I`d also be most grateful for the born & enlisted details.

51566 Pte L W COLDICOTT 1st Devonshire Battalion date of death 24.09.1918.

CWGC reveals that he was 19 and was the, Son of Mrs. N. G. Hyde, of The Craven Arms Hotel, Craven Arms, Salop.

His MIC gives his first name as Leslie.

He`s not on the 1901 census, but I think I`ve found him1911 Leslie William COLDICOTT of Aston WARWICKSHIRE aged 11.

Assuming these are all one and the same person. Interesting how he`s not on the 1901 census, but appears to be living in Aston in 1911 and how ended up in the Devonshire Regiment, and after the war his mother is living in Shropshire? However SD will be able to clear this up?

I`m also hoping someone can also assist me with is what the 1st Battalion Devonshire Regiment was doing on 24.09.1918?

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Cannot help with the diary I'm afraid

(note spelling of name)

Regards,

Graeme

[Laird of Camster]

Many thanks, Graeme!!!! That's a great help to my research!!!!!

Born & Enlisted in Birmingham.

Killed in action 24.09.1918.

Spelling of surname noted.

Re the war diary, I`m assuming the 24th Sept 1918, has something to do with The Battle of the Epehy? CWGC lists 6 casualties for this day . Interesting as all but one of them are in the same cemetery?

[Laird of Camster]

I have been lucky enough to have been given the war diary for the 24th Sept 1918.

'Trenches heavily shelled before daybreak. About 7am an enemy patrol approached our trenches. One of the patrol was shot and taken prisoner dying later. Considerable enemy air activity. Hostile artillery very active all through night harassing area between support line and Bn HQ. Killed 5 other ranks, wounded 13 other ranks wounded at duty 1 other rank. To hospital 3 other ranks.'

The battalion was in the front line near Havrincourt Wood.

The war diary can be down loaded from the national archives - reference WO95/1579.

[Laird of Camster]

Sadly it appears that his service papers don`t exist. I`ve tried looking for them, but can`t find any record of him at all. I`m hoping that by finding his name on a local war memorial I can try the local press. He doesn`t appear on the Craven Arms war memorial. So I`m hoping that he`s on the Aston one, which I believe has over a 1000 names on it, certainly to many to be listed on the internet that I can find. If anybody who lives nearby would have a look for me when there next passing, I`d be in your debt!

[johnboy]

1st Battalion
August 1914 : in Jersey.
21 August 1914 : landed at Le Havre and joined Lines of Communication Defence Troops.
14 September 1914: joined 8th Brigade, 3rd Division.
30 September 1914 : transferred to 14th Brigade, 5th Division.
12 January 1916 : transferred to 95th Brigade in same Division.
Proceeded to Italy with the Division in November 1917 but returned to France on 7 April 1918.

From LLT

[johnboy]

He appears to have kept his birth name. It seems his mother remarried. Was he shown as living with Mrs Hyde in 1911?

[Laird of Camster]

He appears to have kept his birth name. It seems his mother remarried. Was he shown as living with Mrs Hyde in 1911?

To be honest Johnboy, I haven`t got that far yet. I thought I`d have had more success elsewhere tracing him (which thus far I haven`t), before digging deeper into the 1911 census. Interestingly it appears that he is NOT on the Birmingham roll of honour, nor is he on the war memorial in Craven Arms. I fear the trail might be going cold!

I`ve also tried to find his service papers and although there are numerous COLDICOTT papers, I can`t seem to find any for Leslie William?

[Laird of Camster]

He appears to have kept his birth name. It seems his mother remarried. Was he shown as living with Mrs Hyde in 1911?

Okey johnboy, now I am totally confused. I`ve re checked the 1911 census. There are only two Leslie COLDICOTT`s in the country listed and both from Birmingham, but only one Leslie William COLDICOTT (the other is Leslie Arthur born in 1897 so is to old). Leslie COLDICOTT is given as 11 years of age (so the math works out), But his mother is given as Katie Mary (no father) he has a brother and a sister both younger than him. They all lived together at 170 Alcester Street, Birmingham. I`ve also checked the census for anyone called Hyde from Craven Arms and there is no one. So I have no idea why the CWGC give his mother as Mrs N G Hyde of Craven Arms. Unless he was adopted perhaps? Gordon.

Edited 14 October , 2013 by Laird of Camster

[TEW]

Frank Edward Coldicutt born 2nd Qtr 1903 B'ham

Leslie William Coldicutt born 2nd Qtr 1899 Aston

William James Coldicutt Married Kate Mary Baker 3rd Qtr 1897 King's Norton. He may be in Queen's Hospital B'ham during 1911 Census. Born C1873

Can't find any of them on 1901.

TEW

[johnboy]

Okey johnboy, now I am totally confused. I`ve re checked the 1911 census. There are only two Leslie COLDICOTT`s in the country listed and both from Birmingham, but only one Leslie William COLDICOTT (the other is Leslie Arthur born in 1897 so is to old). Leslie COLDICOTT is given as 11 years of age (so the math works out), But his mother is given as Katie Mary (no father) he has a brother and a sister both younger than him. They all lived together at 170 Alcester Street, Birmingham. I`ve also checked the census for anyone called Hyde from Craven Arms and there is no one. So I have no idea why the CWGC give his mother as Mrs N G Hyde of Craven Arms. Unless he was adopted perhaps? Gordon.

Is there a line above re census? It appears the mother put herself down as head of household. Where was the father? Maybe mrs Hyde was a relative, grandmother or aunt and was put down as NOK in his forms and it has been transcribed as his mother. You could try the soldiers wills look up and if he left everything to her it might say Mother.

[Laird of Camster]

Frank Edward Coldicutt born 2nd Qtr 1903 B'ham

Leslie William Coldicutt born 2nd Qtr 1899 Aston

William James Coldicutt Married Kate Mary Baker 3rd Qtr 1897 King's Norton. He may be in Queen's Hospital B'ham during 1911 Census. Born C1873

Can't find any of them on 1901.

TEW

Many thanks for this information TEW .

I`m starting to think that maybe his father had passed away by the time of the 1911 census, as there is no mention of him at all.

[Laird of Camster]

Is there a line above re census? It appears the mother put herself down as head of household. Where was the father? Maybe mrs Hyde was a relative, grandmother or aunt and was put down as NOK in his forms and it has been transcribed as his mother. You could try the soldiers wills look up and if he left everything to her it might say Mother.

JB, I`m starting to think that his father had passed away by the time of the 1911 census, as I can find no information on him, other than what TEW above has supplied. With his mothers maiden name being Baker, I can only assume that Mrs Hyde is some other relative. Perhaps his mother had passed away by 1922? It also appears that the CWGC have her address as the Craven Arms Hotel Craven Arms, but the paperwork sent with medal has it as Homeleigh, Craven Arms (there also appears to be a difference in the spelling of her surname? Which doesn`t help lol).

This might account for why he is not on the Birmingham RoH (his mother had passed away so didn`t apply to have him listed and as he wasn`t from Craven Arms, he wasn`t remembered there either. seems a bit sad really doesn`t it).

[johnboy]

The next of kin info on the memorial was probably taken from some paper or other ie attestment form or enrolement form or from a will in his paybook. When in Birmingham, Mrs Hyde was shown as a charlady [cleaner]. Could be she worked as a cleaner at the Craven Arms when he left for the army. It could have been a live in job. By the time she applied for the medals she could have moved.

1911 Birmingham

1916 - 1918 ? Craven Arms

1922 Holmliegh.

As he was 19yrs old in 1918 he probably signed up in 1917. I think the lower age limit was 18.

If he left school aged 14yrs maybe he worked at Craven Arms Hotel as well.

[johnboy]

Just a thought, in addition to my post above, Mrs N.G HYDE could still be his mother. In those days women used their husbands initials. So the wife of Mr N.G. Hyde would be addressed as Mrs N.G. Hyde.

[TEW]

William James Coldicutt Married Kate Mary Baker 3rd Qtr 1897 King's Norton. He may be in Queen's Hospital B'ham during 1911 Census. Born C1873

TEW

Sorry, perhaps I didn't explain this bit properly. I think that Kate Mary Coldicutt was born as Kate Mary Baker. KMB married a William James Coldicutt 3rd qtr 1897 in King's Norton. 1911 census says she had been married 13 years, give or take a year that takes you to 1897. I also think WJC (Leslie's father) was alive but in Queen's Hospital B'ham during 1911 Census he is also shown as married but no duration given.

There is a WJC who died March 1925 in Birmingham South, if that's Leslie's father it would be unlikley for his mother to re-marry before that date.

The only possible death I've found for Leslie's mother is Kate Coldicott born 1879 died 1936 in Nottingham (evidence is a bit flimsy). I can find no evidence for her re-marrying as Coldicott/Coldicutt/Baker

I can find no family link to Mrs Hyde.

TEW

Doesn't the MIC suggest the medals were unclaimed?? Where does the Homeleigh/Holmleigh bit fit in?? Paperwork sent with medals??

Edited 15 October , 2013 by TEW

[Laird of Camster]

Hi TEW/JOHNBOY,

This case is certainly very curious one isn’t it. I think you maybe right about his N.O.K being taken from his service papers or the like. I will have to try and track them down as they appear to hold the key, don’t they. Assuming that his mother was living in Craven Arms during 1916-1918 period and he joined up in 1917, I’d like to think that he worked there to. But my concern is why he isn’t listed on the Craven Arms war memorial and why soldiers died has him as enlisting in B`ham. The fact of the initials of course that makes perfect sense now and would certainly sort that issue out, but as you say in father didn’t died until 1925 and its unlikely she re-married before then we appear to be back to were we started. Unless did people get divorced in those days? I couldn’t find any trace of Hyde either, however, from the paperwork that came with the medal its appears that she may have spelt her surname Hide? The Homeleigh information is the address that the letters were medals were sent to. Re the MIC I haven’t seen it directly as don’t know about the unclaimed bit?

Gordon.

Edited 15 October , 2013 by Laird of Camster

[johnboy]

I had a relative killed 1916. His mother did not claim the medals until 1923.

If you do another post 'When were medals recieved' some one may be able to explain.

He could have been in Birmingham with his father? Mum left.

As for being in Devonshires, he would have been sent where needed.

[TEW]

Gordon,

The back of Leslie's MIC has 4 handwritten lines:

O I/C recs. requests auth to dispose of medals 2/2/22

O I/C recds. Exeter requests auth to dispose of medals 31/3/22

2nd appln. 31/3/22

3rd appln. 28/4/22.

I'm not sure what that means but if taken at face value it seems to suggest the Officer in charge of records didn't know what to do with the medals and applied 3 times to 'dispose' of them. Seems they had difficulty finding a NOK??.

Having now spotted the paperwork for the medals!! it post-dates these attempts to dispose of the medals. but also the medals were sent to Mrs M Hide who presumably wasn't listed as a NOK on his service record or she would have been found earlier??

Atkinson's 'History of the Devonshire Regiment' has the identical information as Soldiers Died including the Coldicutt spelling. Perhaps Soldiers died took their info from Atkinson.

Pretty sure I have Leslie's mother's death as Kate M Coldicutt in B'ham Dec 1944, matches to her birth year given on 1911 census. Without buying the certificates it is a bit of guess work. Still believe Leslie's Father was William James Coldicott who was in hopsital 1911 and died 1925.

No evidence that Leslie's parents seperated or divorced, Only his 1911 illness gives the impression they were apart. Both died in B'ham.

Thought perhaps N G Hyde maybe a grandmother, aunt or great aunt but both of Leslie's parents are not easy to find on earlier censuses. William is completey absent and only a few vague possibles for Kate.

Certainly a bit of a mystery if his parents were still alive.

TEW

[johnboy]

Seems they had difficulty finding a NOK??.

You are probably right, But..........my relatives NOK is on the cwgc site with his mothers full name and address. As far as I have seen she never moved but she APPLIED for them. I would assume Mrs Hide or hyde applied or the records office would not have known where to send them to.

The Army may have put ads in papers after the war explaining how to get medals as a lot of people would not have known which record offices to apply to.

His will does not appear on the soldiers will index.

[TEW]

The Hide family seem to be the proprietors of the Craven Arms Hotel in 1911 census. Mary A is the head. Mary G her daughter, Minnie G her daughter in law born in B'ham. Doesn't seem to be a Homeleigh in Clun Rd in 1911.

Shropshire - Stokesay - 05 page 44 of 259

Registration District: Ludlow
Registration District Number: 342
Sub-registration District: Diddlebury
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Household Schedule Number: 22

Piece: 15896

In library at present so can only supply direct library type link

TEW

[johnboy]

Minnie G shown as daughter in law...is name of husband shown?

Marriage certificate should show maiden name.

[TEW]

1911 does not show the full picture for the family as she has 10 living children but only 7 are with her at Craven Arms Hotel. There is one married son - John A Hide same age as Minnie. Check the marriages and John A Hide married Minnie Gertrude Lea in King's Norton 2nd qtr 1907. NB Leslie's parents married in King's Norton.

There is also a Mary G Hide daughter of Mary A and there could be more MGs or an NG Hide missing from the home on census night.

1901 the Hide family are at Craven Arms Hotel, father alive then. 7 children present not same contingent as 1911. One daughter had married and had a child born in Port Elizabeth SA (no husband present) well travelled!!!

Still there 1891.

Minnie G Lea is in Erdington B'ham in 1901 with parents (retired licensed victualler from Salop). My Birmingham geography is not good but it's not far from 170 Alcester St. to Erdington (Gravelly Hill area).

Found a Leslie Caldicott on 1901. Aston B'ham, realtionship to head - NURSE CHILD!! aged 1. Bailey Family

TEW

[johnboy]

What was a Nurse Child?

[johnboy]

I have just read something on Nurse Child.

It seems that they were children born illigitimately or taken from the mother if she could not cope.

Have you got a copy of his birth certificate?

Some of the illigitimate children would have no fathers name.