1st Battalion Devonshire Regiment - Soldiers Died Information.

[TEW]

Copy of birth cert would probably solve all but alas I don't have it. An email to the CWGC may also provide an answer.

Thought at first Nurse Child may mean being wet nursed but Leslie was approaching 2 yrs by then so seems unlikley!!!

Just to throw a spanner in the works - seems I've now found William, Kate & Leslie Caldicutt on 1901 census all living together - 20 Angelina St, Aston.

Registration District: Aston

Sub-registration District: Deritend

ED, institution, or vessel: 16

Piece: 2855

Folio: 171

Page Number: 28

A second oddity is that Minnie G Hide nee Lea is in Craven Arms on 1911 census (married) seems to be also showing as single and living with parents in Gravelly Hill, B'ham in 1911. Both are same age and I can only find one birth for that name, year and location. Either she was recorded twice, once as married and once as single?? Or they're different people. Being recorded twice is not that rare, apparently Agatha Christie is on 1911 census twice as are many others. Can't at present see how they can be 2 different people if there's only one birth registered to that name in the right year. Apart from 'family' reasons why though would she be recorded as single on one and married on the other.

Think the OP should contact CWGC and/or the GRO

TEW

[johnboy]

Laird

A birth certificate would help establish if we have the right man.

TEW

What was the father in hospital for?

In the census does it give fathers occupation?

[Laird of Camster]

Gents, thank you ever so much for all your time and effort in trying to piece this puzzle together. It is greatly appreciated as is all the documentation you’re dug up.

The story is certainly a confusing and sad tale. I don’t think we’ll ever get to the bottom of it (it’s sometimes hard enough to research our own families, let alone someone else’s).

It had been my intention to try and find a report of his death in the local paper with perhaps a picture (as it’s always nice to put a face to a name), but this appears to be unlikely now.

All our research seems to create more questions than it answers!

Now almost a 100 years later, I’d like to think that we’ve in a small part rekindled his memory.

R.I.P Leslie William COLDICOTT.

[Laird of Camster]

Just thought. Given that he was 19 when he was killed (assuming only just mind), and given that we’re in 1918 now. Would he have been conscripted or would he have been a volunteer. Either way and assuming also that he would have joined up perhaps in late 1917, would he have needed his parents permission to join up. How much training were they giving new recruits then?

Perhaps his service papers would answer all our questions?

[johnboy]

He could have volunteered or been conscripted. I have a feeling that he would have to have been 18 or 19 to be sent overseas. There may be info on LLT.

Again, check LLT for training. The average could be about 16 weeks but might of varied depending if battalion needed replacements.

[Laird of Camster]

He could have volunteered or been conscripted. I have a feeling that he would have to have been 18 or 19 to be sent overseas. There may be info on LLT.

Again, check LLT for training. The average could be about 16 weeks but might of varied depending if battalion needed replacements.

Thanks again JB. I`ll have to try and get hold of his service papers. I think that these (if they exist), will hold the key to many of our questions!!!

[johnboy]

From LLt info 1st Devonshires were in Jersey 1914. It does not say why.

Italy November 1917 but returned to France on 7 April 1918.

So, depending on when he enlisted he could have gone to Italy or joined the Regiment in France. Either way I can find nothing on LLT to indicate where 1 Devons did training in UK.

[Laird of Camster]

From LLt info 1st Devonshires were in Jersey 1914. It does not say why.

Italy November 1917 but returned to France on 7 April 1918.

So, depending on when he enlisted he could have gone to Italy or joined the Regiment in France. Either way I can find nothing on LLT to indicate where 1 Devons did training in UK.

Thanks again JB. When (if) I`m able to trace his papers, I`ll post my findings here.

[TEW]

No illness is given for the William James Coldicott in Queen's Hosp. B'ham in 1911. His occupation is given as Coachman, Undertaker as opposed to Shop keeper in 1901.

As far as Leslie's age is concerned I believe by 1918 you had to be 19 to serve overseas, for him that means spring 1918, unless he lied and his age didn't come to light until his death.

Abridged extract from Atkinson:

Aug 21st to 31st 1918. 1st Devon's objective was Hill 140, N W of Beugny.

Entry for Aug 31st;

This brought the total losses since Aug 21st to five officers killed and thirteen wounded, with 250 casualties among 'other ranks'; and if the battalion, after this most strenuous period and exacting period, certainly needed a rest, it wanted reinforcements equally badly.

Abridged entry 23rd Sept to 27th Sept 1918.

The 10 days rest vouchsafed to it (5th Division) had been turned to good purpose, and it was rested and refreshed when , on Sept 15th it relieved the New Zealanders on a line just west of Gouzeaucourt and running northward along the Trescault Spur. Nearly a fortnight was to pass before any big advance was attempted. The first week the Devons (1St Bn.) spent at Neuville Bourjon in reserve, and not until the 20th did they take over Snap Trench from the 15th Royal Warwickshires. They found themselves in a disturbed quarter: the Germans evidently expected another big attack and tried their utmost to impede the preparations by harassing artillery fire. Snipers, too were active, though the Devons found frequent targets, thanks to the unusual amount of movement in the German trenches, and claimed many hits. It was important to obtain all possible information about the German defences, especially the wire, so patrols were unusually active. There were several encounters with the Germans, who were also patrolling vigorously and tried a raid which was repulsed, a prisoner being taken who afforded a useful identification. Five days in the line produced nearly thirty casualties, Capt. Wheeler being among the wounded; and then, after two days in reserve, the battlion moved up to Metz-en-Couture on Sept 27th.

TEW

[Laird of Camster]

No illness is given for the William James Coldicott in Queen's Hosp. B'ham in 1911. His occupation is given as Coachman, Undertaker as opposed to Shop keeper in 1901.

As far as Leslie's age is concerned I believe by 1918 you had to be 19 to serve overseas, for him that means spring 1918, unless he lied and his age didn't come to light until his death.

Abridged extract from Atkinson:

Aug 21st to 31st 1918. 1st Devon's objective was Hill 140, N W of Beugny.

Entry for Aug 31st;

This brought the total losses since Aug 21st to five officers killed and thirteen wounded, with 250 casualties among 'other ranks'; and if the battalion, after this most strenuous period and exacting period, certainly needed a rest, it wanted reinforcements equally badly.

Abridged entry 23rd Sept to 27th Sept 1918.

The 10 days rest vouchsafed to it (5th Division) had been turned to good purpose, and it was rested and refreshed when , on Sept 15th it relieved the New Zealanders on a line just west of Gouzeaucourt and running northward along the Trescault Spur. Nearly a fortnight was to pass before any big advance was attempted. The first week the Devons (1St Bn.) spent at Neuville Bourjon in reserve, and not until the 20th did they take over Snap Trench from the 15th Royal Warwickshires. They found themselves in a disturbed quarter: the Germans evidently expected another big attack and tried their utmost to impede the preparations by harassing artillery fire. Snipers, too were active, though the Devons found frequent targets, thanks to the unusual amount of movement in the German trenches, and claimed many hits. It was important to obtain all possible information about the German defences, especially the wire, so patrols were unusually active. There were several encounters with the Germans, who were also patrolling vigorously and tried a raid which was repulsed, a prisoner being taken who afforded a useful identification. Five days in the line produced nearly thirty casualties, Capt. Wheeler being among the wounded; and then, after two days in reserve, the battlion moved up to Metz-en-Couture on Sept 27th.

TEW

Thanks TEW, very interesting reading. I`m hoping that from his papers I`ll be able to ascertain his age, and when he arrived in France. They certainly had a time of it in September by all accounts!!!

[TEW]

Had a reply from the CWGC who say they have a Headstone Schedule that refers to Mrs G Hyde and then a Cemetery Register which shows the Son of Mrs. N. G. Hyde, of The Craven Arms Hotel, Craven Arms, Salop.

Minnie Gertrude Hide née Lea married John A Hide in 1907 (Minnie and John are at above address in 1911) but there is also a Minne Gertrude Lea who married Albert Edward Coldicott in 1897. Almost certainly the same person. No idea of relationship of Albert to Leslie's supposed parents William and Kate. No evidence he is a brother, maybe cousin.

Hard name to track due to name spellings and transcriptions, now think Millie is Millie Coldientt on 1901 census, no sign of Albert.

Tew

[Laird of Camster]

Had a reply from the CWGC who say they have a Headstone Schedule that refers to Mrs G Hyde and then a Cemetery Register which shows the Son of Mrs. N. G. Hyde, of The Craven Arms Hotel, Craven Arms, Salop.

Minnie Gertrude Hide née Lea married John A Hide in 1907 (Minnie and John are at above address in 1911) but there is also a Minne Gertrude Lea who married Albert Edward Coldicott in 1897. Almost certainly the same person. No idea of relationship of Albert to Leslie's supposed parents William and Kate. No evidence he is a brother, maybe cousin.

Hard name to track due to name spellings and transcriptions, now think Millie is Millie Coldientt on 1901 census, no sign of Albert.

Tew

This certainly is a very confusing set of circumstances isn’t it? The CWGC seem to have firm evidence that Mrs Hide is his mother, why else would see have confirmed her details with them and indeed applied for his medals.

I wonder was perhaps Leslie William adopted (nurse child issue) by Minnie Lea, when she was married to Albert (who was related to William snr somehow), then when she divorces Albert (or he dies or whatever) and she remarried John Hide, they go and live in Craven Arms. She considers herself his mother and visa versa?

The only problem with this theory is why he is listed as living with Kate in 1911, but Minnie was living in Craven Arms then, possibly as early as 1907?

Edited 6 November , 2013 by Laird of Camster

[Laird of Camster]

Further issue would be that he doesn`t appear on the Craven Arms war memorial?

http://www.midlandsheritage.co.uk/war-memorials/6441-stokesay-craven-arms.html