Implications of existence of soldier's will?

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Interesting "discussion". All I can add is a post war example - my father saw active service in Palestine Oct 1938 and I have his will ripped out of his AB 64.

It was only when I got his service record last year that I saw an endorsement "will returned to man on discharge" that it dawned on me that his will had been handed in for retention centrally rather than kept by my father whilst on active service.

Steve Y

[David Tattersfield]

As an aside, it may be that the article detailed here

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/research-family-story/3306-wills-of-english-soldiers-killed-in-the-great-war.html?utm_source=The+Western+Front+Association+eNewsletter+%28all+members%29&utm_campaign=b5f26c9b60-WFA_Members_eNewsletter_July_2012&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_313ed9e469-b5f26c9b60-299919953

may be of passing interest to anyone following this thread.

Feedback welcomed.

David

[AdrianBruce]

David - many thanks for this.

I imagine that the sentences "On joining the army, a soldier was issued with an Army Pay Book (AB64) which had to be kept with him at all times. One of the few times he would be parted from his pay book would be if he was involved in a trench raid when all identification was removed." constitute the most authoritative statement on carriage of a pay book that I am likely to see. Agrees with the regulation - and possibly agrees with the objections (that were never made clear to me).

I wonder what percentage of soldiers killed in my family have left wills in that dataset? Probably far too low a population to reach any sensible statistical conclusion.

Adrian

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... His will survived and I like to think it was removed from him where he fell.

Etc etc etc. As I said earlier, I'm fascinated by this dogged adherence to the idea that just because something appears in a printed War Office document it would be adhered to absolutely, despite common sense telling everybody concerned that - well as they say, Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Here is an example from a war diary I was trawling though at TNA today >

Circumstances whereby soldiers serving at the front would not be carrying their paybooks or other documents go beyond trench raiding, and there must have been many thousands of British soldiers who died and were buried without any form of identification.

Tom

[CROONAERT]

I imagine that the sentences "On joining the army, a soldier was issued with an Army Pay Book (AB64) which had to be kept with him at all times. ...." constitute the most authoritative statement on carriage of a pay book that I am likely to see.

Other than the fact that a soldier wasn't issued with his AB64 'on joining the army' until later on. The AB64 (like his identity disc) was only issued upon his being made ready for active service. This was especially so for the first couple of years of the war

[AdrianBruce]

Other than the fact that a soldier wasn't issued with his AB64 'on joining the army' until later on.

Hah! Why am I not surprised....

[David Tattersfield]

Croonaert: Thanks for the clarification

Tom: Indeed, there may have been other examples of occasions when it was not carried, but a Trench raid would be a useful (typical?) example of this circumstance I believe.

Thanks for the feedback

David

[AdrianBruce]

As I said earlier, I'm fascinated by this dogged adherence to the idea that just because something appears in a printed War Office document it would be adhered to absolutely, despite common sense telling everybody concerned that ....

Tom - firstly I have explicitly stated that I recognise that not every rule will be adhered to 100% of the time, so have never believed that rules would be "adhered to absolutely". That goes with the territory called reality.

Secondly, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, the historian has no option other than to start by believing the documentation (with the usual caveats on what the word "believe" means, i.e. nothing is finally conclusive for ever). Given that the rules say that Pay Books were to be carried at all times, that is where I start from until evidence is provided to the contrary. Earlier in this thread you indicated that was not the case and then later produced documentation to that effect, though I was left to assume which section in the document you were referring to. However, even there the reference was to raiding parties. Extrapolating from non-essential personal documents to mandatory official documents, and extrapolating from raiding parties where the soldiers would return to their starting position (eventually) to major pushes where there was no intention so to do, are both serious steps that should be highlighted by their proponents and not assumed. In neither case have I seen any justification.

Your image from the War Diary is indeed valuable and clearly supports the non-carrying of pay-books, etc. under some circumstances. It would have been helpful to have had that evidence earlier in the thread to support your contentions.

However, let me restate my case - my primary interest was in my great-uncle who was killed in the Battle of Messines - my reading of the rules leads me to believe that it is highly likely that the will came from a pay-book that he was carrying at the time of his death. I find it difficult to believe that he would not be carrying it - he was not, so far as I can see, expected to return to the same point, so leaving the pay-book behind in the "trenches" would imply that the book had no value. While I appreciate rules aren't always followed, I also know bureaucracy works in specific ways and would not appreciate mass abandonment of the things. If there are alternative arguments, such as all documentation and personal effects being left at base to be picked up and carried on later, then can someone please be explicit about it.

[CROONAERT]

Etc etc etc. As I said earlier, I'm fascinated by this dogged adherence to the idea that just because something appears in a printed War Office document it would be adhered to absolutely, despite common sense telling everybody concerned that - well as they say, Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men

...

Circumstances whereby soldiers serving at the front would not be carrying their paybooks or other documents go beyond trench raiding, and there must have been many thousands of British soldiers who died and were buried without any form of identification.

Tom

Can't say that I've been following the 'argument' as to whether or not a will was carried with a soldier at all times (and don't really care actually... though I thought it was rather common knowledge that there were times when ID wasn't carried (but the location/place of retention of which was known and easily available) so am a little bemused by the 'discussion' anyway), but... who exactly are you referring to as the 'Paybook wallies' of the GWF (as the titling of your image rather condescendingly implies)?

I happen to find the collection and research of military identifications (whether it be AB64's, Soldbuchs, Livrets Militaire, Militarpasse, Wehrpasse, Livrets Matricule , discs identity, legitimationskapsellen, erkennungsmarken, or whatever) interesting (and rather therapeutic actually!) so can't see why you appear to have a problem with it... Apart from that , it's a damn site cheaper (and less insulting I suppose) than being a 'Medal ******' or my old hobby of being a 'trenchmap dickhead' I suppose!

Dave.

[AdrianBruce]

... I thought it was rather common knowledge that there were times when ID wasn't carried (but the location/place of retention of which was known and easily available) ...

Not common knowledge to me... Is it possible to expand on the "location / place of retention of which was known and easily available" bit? Especially the "place of retention"?

Cheers and many thanks for your work so far in this thread.

[Chris Henschke]

Here is an extract from Instructions relating to Pay Duties of Officers Commanding Squadrons, Batteries, Companies, Etc., issued with Army Order 187 dated the 1st June, 1918. Part II., Duties in the Field.

'84. Death.—If a soldier dies before the conclusion of a term of active service, the officer commanding unit will forward his pay book to the D.A.G., 3rd Echelon, who, after cutting out any will contained therein for dispatch to the War Office with A.F. B 2090A, will pass the book to the Paymaster compiling the man’s accounts at home.'

As an aside, the AIF designed a new pay book and issued them from very early 1917, replacing the old AB64 style. This new pay book had no Will page because by then, Wills had been issued and then kept at the Estates Branch of AIF Administrative Headquarters in Horseferry Road.

There were three forms to be used

1. Will,

2. Notification of Location of Will already made, or

3. Notification that it is not desired to make a Will

Further, this may be of interest.

WILLS AND DISPOSITION OF SAME

In the majority of legislative divisions of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of Australia an informal Will made by a soldier on active service is sufficient to pass personal property only and is inoperative with regard to real estate.

...The advantage of making a Will will be lost however, unless the Will when made is deposited in safe keeping. Provision has been made for the safe keeping of all Wills of Officers, N.C.Os and men of the A.I.F. at the “Estates Branch”, Australian Headquarters, Cairo. In the event of any member of the A.I.F. having made a Will in Australia or elsewhere this fact should be reported, stating the place where same is deposited as such information will greatly facilitate the distribution of military estate in the event of casualty. Experience has shown that the pay book Will is unsatisfactory and all such Wills should be cancelled and new Wills made and forwarded to this Office for custody. Ink or indelible pencil to be used in making Will, the former for preference.

Australian Headquarters, Egypt.

4 December 1917''

[Chris Henschke]

As to the question of if the Will had been extracted from the paybook and kept elsewhere, this would have been contrary to the normal procedure.

Here is an extract from General Procedure Dealing with Records, issued by Third Echelon, GHQ, BEF.

[David Tattersfield]

Thanks Chris. This is very useful indeed, the instructions you quote enable a greater understanding of what I assumed to be the case in the article on the WFA web site.

[AdrianBruce]

As to the question of if the Will had been extracted from the paybook and kept elsewhere, this would have been contrary to the normal procedure.

Thanks Chris, for that. At the risk of applying logic instead of knowledge, extracting the will from the pay-book didn't make sense to me because there is no Army Form number on the page (at least, not when talking about the pre-1918 AB64 form) suggesting the Army did not envisage them having a life of their own (until the last possible moment). Again, to forestall misunderstanding, I would agree that Mr Murphy and his Law would suggest that somewhere, sooner or later, it did happen, contrary or not. Just probably not very often.

Adrian

[Kath]

Croonaert,

Thank you for this:

Q. The AB64 (like his identity disc) was only issued upon his being made ready for active service.

It seems to explain my grandfather's message while, I think, still at Aldershot:

...expect to leave for Dardenelles Monday have been served out with new book today expect to get new clothes tomorrow....

Kath.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... the historian has no option other than to start by believing the documentation (with the usual caveats on what the word "believe" means, i.e. nothing is finally conclusive for ever). Given that the rules say that Pay Books were to be carried at all times, that is where I start from until evidence is provided to the contrary. Earlier in this thread you indicated that was not the case and then later produced documentation to that effect, though I was left to assume which section in the document you were referring to. However, even there the reference was to raiding parties. Extrapolating from non-essential personal documents to mandatory official documents, and extrapolating from raiding parties where the soldiers would return to their starting position (eventually) to major pushes where there was no intention so to do, are both serious steps that should be highlighted by their proponents and not assumed. In neither case have I seen any justification. ...

Adrian - Firstly I'd have to say that you might expect "the historian" to have a rather wider knowledge of the available documentation than your post implies. Your statement "Not common knowledge to me.." in post #60 speaks volumes.

I had intended not to put forward the following example because I cannot immediately give you the specific source document reference. But - here is an extract from notes which I compiled many many years ago* regarding the 4th QO Cameron Highlanders at the Battle of Loos (* before we had digital cameras, and my computer had a black screen with green text !). At the end of this message I'll give you document references from which my notes where compiled.

(27th September 1915. Loos).

... During the day the Quartermasters in 7th Division were ordered to send forward the men's greatcoats which had been left in the rear areas at the beginning of the battle (it now being felt that the effect of the cold on the infantry was worse than the hampering of movement caused by the coat).

This was not popular with the men as they had left their letters and other belongings in the pockets of their greatcoats and did not like the coats being issued in bulk.

Words in italics are a direct quote from a WO95 file. Note this isn't talking of trench raids or the like - this is an entire division taking part in a major battle.

Tom

My 4th QOCH notes were compiled from the following war diaries >

21st BRIGADE ~ DONE ~ TILL 19 DEC, WHICH IS THE MOVE DATE ~ WO95-1658

91st BRIGADE ~ DONE ~19 DEC 1915 TILL 6 JAN 1916 ~ WO95-1666

154th BRIGADE ~ DONE ~ 6th JAN TILL 26th FEB (MOVE TO No 1 EB), WO95/2883

7th DIVISION ~ DONE ~ WO95-1629 TILL SEPT, THEN 1630 TILL 6th JAN 1916 (BOTH DONE)

7th DIV ADJUTANT ~ DONE ~ WO95/1636 & 1637 TILL 6th JAN 1916 (BOTH DONE)

# NOTE THAT ON 22 NOV THERE IS A TEMP ATTATCHMENT TO 56 BDE. (19TH DIV) BDE IS WO95/2075 ~ DONE ~ NO INTEREST

# NOTE - 30th DIVISION IS IN CONTROL OF 21st BDE FROM 19/12/15. (NOT INCL 4th BATT)

51st DIVISION GENERAL STAFF ~ DONE ~ FROM 6 JAN 1916 TILL 26FEB - WO95/2844

51st DIVISION A & QMG ~ DONE ~ WO95/2848

1st CORPS ~ DONE ~ FOR SEPTEMBER TILL DECEMBER, WO95/592. (IE COMPLETE)

1st CORPS ADJUTANT ~ DONE ~ SEPT TILL OCTOBER 1915 WO95/599 + DONE ~ NOV + DEC WO95/600 (IE COMPLETE)

13 CORPS GS ~ DONE ~ FROM 5/12/15 TILL 26/2/16 - WO95/895 - COMPLETE

13 CORPS ADJUTANT~ DONE ~FROM 5 DEC TILL 26 FEB 1916 ~ WO95/898 (COMPLETE)

1st ARMY GENERAL STAFF ~ DONE FOR MAY (HAIG'S REPORT) WO95/155, SEPTEMBER WO95/158 + DONE ~ OCTOBER WO95/159 (CONTAINS FILE AT END RE NON ARRIVAL OF REINFORCEMENTS) + DONE ~ NOV TILL DEC 6TH (IE FINISHED) WO95/160 (ALSO HAS NOTES RE REINFORCEMENTS)

1st ARMY A & Q BRANCH ~ DONE ~ TILL DEC (FINISHED) WO95/181

3rd ARMY GENERAL STAFF ~ DONE ~ 6TH DEC TILL END FEB (IE COMPLETE)

3rd ARMY A & Q BRANCH ~ DONE ~ 6TH DEC TILL END OF FEB (IE COMPLETE)

"OTHER" BATT. DIARIES INCORPORATED.

23 FIELD AMBULANCE - WO95/1648 ~ DONE

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I also have to express new-found sympathy for Colonel Fritz-Shrapnel, at Loos, as he struggled with the realities of war whilst having at the same time to cope with the base-wallas who's thinking was firmly stuck inside the box, and for whom rules was rules.

Tom

[roughdiamond]

(27th September 1915. Loos).

... During the day the Quartermasters in 7th Division were ordered to send forward the men's greatcoats which had been left in the rear areas at the beginning of the battle (it now being felt that the effect of the cold on the infantry was worse than the hampering of movement caused by the coat).

This was not popular with the men as they had left their letters and other belongings in the pockets of their greatcoats and did not like the coats being issued in bulk.

Words in italics are a direct quote from a WO95 file. Note this isn't talking of trench raids or the like - this is an entire division taking part in a major battle.

I was going to avoid posting back onto this thread, but it does come up with new posts on "my content" so I had a look and frankly couldn't let this post go unchallenged.

Nowhere in that text does it mention AB64's "letters and other belongings" does not equate to proof in any way shape or form that they were left behind. I'm open minded and happy to learn, but there is nothing of any value in that post to support your arguement and the use of italics does nothing to change that.

In relation to your post #54 where you include an image of part of a set of typed orders, there is no context given with them, were they for a general attack, a trench raid or some other form of movement towards the enemy?

Sam

[Chris Henschke]

Re post no. 66.

Given that the pay book should be carried in the 'right breast ppcket of service dress jacket' (using the Field Service Pocket Book 1914 as a guide), on the balance of probabilities, they would never have left pay books behind.

[johnboy]

Re post no. 66.

Given that the pay book should be carried in the 'right breast ppcket of service dress jacket' (using the Field Service Pocket Book 1914 as a guide), on the balance of probabilities, they would never have left pay books behind.

I agree. As I have stated before, I am happy enough to believe that the paybook was removed from my relatives body.

[eairicbloodaxe]

When researching on the irish soldiers wills website, I have come across a number of wills that are obviously bloodstained, and at least one with what looks like a bullet hole in it.

This suggests that at least some wills were carried into battle and later removed from the dead. Common practice or not...

Regards

Ian

[AdrianBruce]

Adrian - Firstly I'd have to say that you might expect "the historian" to have a rather wider knowledge of the available documentation than your post implies. Your statement "Not common knowledge to me.." in post #60 speaks volumes.

I had intended not to put forward the following example ...

Tom - regardless of any debate over the exact contents of the greatcoats, your quotes about the 7th at Loos are a valuable addition to the information, expanding the range of possibilities for what happened. It is unfortunate that information like that, and the specific removal of identifications in trench raids, has appeared so late in the thread.

As for your comment on my statement "Not common knowledge to me", I am totally happy to confess my ignorance of military history. I'm a family historian who simply wishes to pay tribute to his relatives by teasing out as much as I can about what happened to them. Hence, I search for information and if I can't find it, I ask questions. And if the answers lack a bit, or contain anomalies, I'll ask again.

Do I feel I know what happened to my great-uncle? No - I thought the evidence of the will might have some implications, but the interpretation of the evidence of the surrounding processes (for which many thanks to all who have supplied it) is problematic. I do feel that at least I have moved some of the questions from "unknown unknowns" to "known unknowns".

Adrian

[johnboy]

From Field Service Manual 1914 Infantry Battalion [Expeditionary Force]

A. — Clothing, Etc., worn by
the Soldier.

•Boots, ankle pair

*Braces ,,

Cap, service dress or (glengarry),

with badge

Disc, identity, with cord
*Drawers, Avoollen ... pair
Jacket, service dress, f and metal

titles, with field dressing: ...
Knife, clasp, with marline spike

and tin-opener

Paybook (in right breast pocket

of S.D. jacket)

So if the will was filled out in the back of the paybook it should have been in the right breast pocket.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Nowhere in that text does it mention AB64's "letters and other belongings" does not equate to proof in any way shape or form that they were left behind. ...

In relation to your post #54 where you include an image of part of a set of typed orders, there is no context given with them, were they for a general attack, a trench raid or some other form of movement towards the enemy?

1). I can only apologise on behalf of the diarist for not having listed all the WO references for any documents left in the greatcoats, or the names and addresses of all of the people to whom personal correspondence may have been addressed or received from. Obviously it is regrettable that he did not schedule all photographs, postcards, sundry notes and shopping lists left in the coats, billet-doux, good luck charms, etc etc etc.

2). Trench raid, 56th Division.

3). Before you ask, no I don't know where all the trench coats were stored.

Tom

[johnboy]

3). Before you ask, no I don't know where all the trench coats were stored.

They would have been left at an allocated dump if what I have read in a war diary is true.

I notice that you have not commented on post# 73 yet.