Implications of existence of soldier's will?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Tom

What's your guess then on the will shown post #22?

And this one from Flickr

I'm not going to guess at anything. In post # 24 I denied the claim that a British soldier who was killed during WW1 would, de facto, be carrying a will (of any kind) and / or a pay book.

I quite happily stand by that, and I am astounded to see that there are people who claim knowledge of the modus operandi of the British Army during WW1 who claim otherwise.

Tom

[johnboy]

If the soldier did not carry his paybook and will at all times where would it have been deposited.?

[eairicbloodaxe]

Somewhere in the presentation I did to Iron Mountain when I was involved on this project, I have examples of each type of will. Will post when I get to the right computer.

Regards

Ian

[CROONAERT]

. (Of course, it might be that an SSB is just another name for a Pay Book????)

It's not. The Soldier's Small Book was a type of record of service , identity document and soldier's handbook all rolled into one. The pay book (AB64) was, until later in the war, simply what it says (it later became the 'Service & Pay Book'). AB64s were issued upon going on (or in preparation for) active service, SSBs were carried before that (and during) until the issue of them stopped mid-war.

Below is an example will from a late-war (August 1918 printing) AB64 ( 'Service & Pay Book')...

[CROONAERT]

What's your guess then on the will shown post #22?

No need for a guess on that one....... it's a 'Short Form of Will' taken from a pre-1918 printing of an AB64 'Soldier's Pay Book for use on Active Service'.

Dave

[CROONAERT]

The 'Soldier's Small Book' will(s).....

[CROONAERT]

A pre 1918 'Short Form of Will' taken from a AB64 'Soldier's Pay Book for use on Active Service' (Feb 1917 printing).....

[roughdiamond]

Tom

What's your guess then on the will shown post #22?

And this one from Flickr

There's no need to guess johnboy, simply look at the link I posted in my post #20

Sam

edited to add: Where the post states "Informal Will" this is due to the wrong description given on the National Archives of Scotland, it should read "Short Form of Will".

[CROONAERT]

simply look at the link I posted in my post #20

...which seems to be a little confused and erroneous as regards 'Soldier's Pay Books', 'Soldier's Service and Pay Books', 'Soldier's Service and Pay Books Pts. I & II' (all AB 64's, but from differing time periods) and 'Soldier's Small Books' (AF B50's)

Dave

[johnboy]

Thanks for the info Dave. The OP will looks like it is from AB64. [same page no. 13]

Does anyone have any info on if there was a regulation requiring soldiers to carry their pay book at all times.?

[CROONAERT]

Thanks for the info Dave. The OP will looks like it is from AB64. [same page no. 13]

Yep!... from a pre-1918 printing of one.

Does anyone have any info on if there was a regulation requiring soldiers to carry their pay book at all times.?

I'm sure that people will be able to go into chapter and verse on this (I can't!), but here're the instructions from an AB64 Pt.I from 1918. See number '2'......

Dave

[johnboy]

Thanks again Dave. In black and white. At least some of us can back up our statements! A lot better than just saying 'No' and things like guessing and then not citing anything to back it up.

[roughdiamond]

In post # 24 I denied the claim that a British soldier who was killed during WW1 would, de facto, be carrying a will (of any kind) and / or a pay book.

I quite happily stand by that, and I am astounded to see that there are people who claim knowledge of the modus operandi of the British Army during WW1 who claim otherwise.

Tom

In my post I stated "IF an INFORMAL WILL exists it came from the SOLDIERS PAY BOOK". That is indisputable fact as the only INFORMAL WILL used by the British Army was the one found in the AB64. I never at any time claimed ALL men completed the Will form as it wasn't compulsory, however if it exists, it was.

As for the "Modus operandi", Dave has beaten me to the punch, read instruction 2 in his post #36, the Army put that into bold type for a reason.

Now I've laid out the facts, . ................................, would you like to give facts on where else the INFORMAL WILLS found on the new service would come from?

edited to add: Where the post states "Informal Will" this is due to the wrong description given on the National Archives of Scotland, it should read "Short Form of Will".

Edited 6 October , 2013 by Keith Roberts
irrelevanr comment deleted

[johnboy]

Q roughdiamond

Now I've laid out the facts, rather than sniping, would you like to give facts on where else the INFORMAL WILLS found on the new service would come from?

Edited 6 October , 2013 by Keith Roberts
Lack of respect - one line deleted.

[CROONAERT]

Maybe someone can help explain what happened with lost or damaged books.

If damaged or full, then the books were cancelled (and, usually, marked up as such) and replacements given often marked up in some way to indicate this - I've seen the word 'Replacement' or 'Duplicate' or simply a letter 'R' stamped (usually) or written on some of these. Sometimes (when replacing a full book), a note was made indicating that the new book is a continuation of a completed one with appropriate dates. Old ones were retained for records and given back upon discharge (however that might be).

Lost books were also replaced (whether free or with a charge, I don't know). If marked up, then the above would apply to these too.

Dave.

[SiegeGunner]

In my post I stated "IF an INFORMAL WILL exists it came from the SOLDIERS PAY BOOK". That is indisputable fact as the only INFORMAL WILL used by the British Army was the one found in the AB64. I never at any time claimed ALL men completed the Will form as it wasn't compulsory, however if it exists, it was.

As for the "Modus operandi", Dave has beaten me to the punch, read instruction 2 in his post #36, the Army put that into bold type for a reason.

Now I've laid out the facts, rather than sniping, would you like to give facts on where else the INFORMAL WILLS found on the new service would come from?

Not sure how/why you feel able to be so categorical about 'the facts'. My great-uncle's will, on Army Form W 3297, is accompanied by a form entitled 'Informal Will', which states 'The enclosed document, dated xxxx and signed xxxx, appears to have been written or executed by the person named in the margin while he was "in actual military service" within the meaning of the Wills Act 1837 and has been recognised by the War Department as constituting a valid will.'

[CROONAERT]

.... My great-uncle's will, on Army Form W 3297, is accompanied by a form entitled 'Informal Will' ...

Indeed. This is another place where the Scottish Archives website has got crossed wires. The 'Informal Will' was not found in the AB 64 Pay Book. - The AB 64 Pay Book contained the 'Short Form of Will' and the AF B50 Soldier's Small Book contained the 'Form of Will No.1' and the 'Form of Will No.2'.......................Post- World War 1 AB 64 Pay Books contained all 3 (albeit with different AF numbers to their earlier counterparts) , but the 'Informal Will' was another form completely.

Dave

[saw119]

You know, I don't think the will I have is complete in terms of what's been scanned. The will I have is numbered Page 13 at the top but it doesn't have the space at the bottom for 'signature', Rank and Regt' and 'date'. In fact, I'm sure that P.T.O. is written at the bottom of the page and there is no signature or date on it.

[roughdiamond]

Dave

Cheers for pointing that out, you are indeed correct, my error comes from the description on the Archives, so for "Informal Will" in my posts, insert "Short Form of Will" and with that change it really doesn't alter the point I made, that Will would only be removed from the AB64 on death and the AB64 was carried at all times

I won't change the posts above in case I'm accused of trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes, I'll simply add this to each post for clarity:

edited to add: Where the post states "Informal Will" this is due to the wrong description given on the National Archives of Scotland, it should read "Short Form of Will".

[AdrianBruce]

Thanks very much - especial thanks to Dave for supplying the images of the various forms, with references, and the "rules" of the game.

So, I think as far as my great-uncle Tom's will goes (yes, it was obtained from the new service)...

• It's a "Short Form of Will" taken from a pre-1918 printing of an AB64 'Soldier's Pay Book for use on Active Service' (post 30). No reference number is given on the page;
• This Pay Book form does not need to be witnessed (post 29) but this relaxation applies only to soldiers on Active Service (bullet 9, post 31) (over-simplifying here - this is the case in English law);
• The "Form of Will, No. 1" (AF B 243) and "Form of Will, No. 2" (AF B 244), both coming from the Soldier's Small Book (AF B50?), need to be witnessed if completed "properly" (post 31);
• The sample text for the "Short Form" in AB64 shows Thomas Atkins leaving his all to his mother - which might explain why my g-uncle did just that, rather than leaving it to his father, who was still alive and working;
• In 1918, the AB64 "Pay Book" (referred to as a Soldier's Service Book there) states (bullet 2, post 36) "You will always carry the book on your person..."

So - logically, Tom Taylor's will came from his AB64 Pay Book, which he was supposed to carry on his person. If he followed the rules, then the Pay Book (and will therein) were on his person when he died, so the only way his will survives is if his body was recovered and the pay book (and will) removed.

I'm sure there are all sorts of ways this might not be what happens, such as

• leaving his Pay Book in his pack, and leaving that behind (seems unlikely to me - surely it's not like the Cheshires at Messines knew they'd be coming back to the same spot?);
• ripping the Will out of the AB64 to be left behind (the instructions in post 36 allow writing on the Will's page but forbid any other writing, making this seem unlikely).

So it's by no means proven - just highly likely.

[johnboy]

Adrian

Although you can never be 100% sure it does make sense. I have a relative in the same sort of situation, no known grave and remembered at Thiepval. His will survived and I like to think it was removed from him where he fell.

[CROONAERT]

• ... In 1918, the AB64 "Pay Book" (referred to as a Soldier's Service Book there)...

I should, perhaps, have been a little clearer there. By mid/late 1918 , what was once the 'Soldier's Pay Book for use on Active Service' had become the 'Soldier's Service and Pay Book' and was in two parts (AB64 Pt.I and AB64 Pt.II). Part 1 was the 'Service Book' and Part II was the 'Pay Book'. Though , in reality , two separate books, Pt.II (which never had its own cover) was kept inside the cover of and attached to Pt.I (hence the re-titling on the front cover) so , to all appearances, was just one single book.

Dave

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... In post # 24 I denied the claim that a British soldier who was killed during WW1 would, de facto, be carrying a will (of any kind) and / or a pay book.

I quite happily stand by that, and I am astounded to see that there are people who claim knowledge of the modus operandi of the British Army during WW1 who claim otherwise.

Thanks again Dave. In black and white. At least some of us can back up our statements! A lot better than just saying 'No' and things like guessing and then not citing anything to back it up.

I stand by my statement in the post above and I have to say that my lower jaw is tapping the ground reading some of the seemingly clever responses above which claim that they prove that a British soldier killed during WW1 would, QED, be carrying a will. Post # 27, "Johnboy", nearly made my eyes pop out.

I don't gamble. My grandfather (F&F 1915-1919) used to tell me to start gambling when I saw bookmakers riding bicycles, so I've never been in a bookie's in my life. I do however have the occasional bet. Anybody ("Johnboy" ?) fancy putting cash on this - say, venue, TNA London and adjudicator a GWF mod of your choice (or somebody else mutually acceptable). Say £500 cash on me being incorrect in stating that "a British soldier who was killed during WW1 would, de facto, be carrying a will (of any kind) and / or a pay book." is incorrect and would have been commonly incorrect during WW1. Anybody up for it ?

I realise that that may seem a bit provocative, but I really am astounded that nobody posting above seems to be aware of the very common principle reason why the claim of carrying a will might not apply, or if they were not immediately aware they have not ventured even slightly out of the box and said to themselves - why wouldn't a man be carrying a will or a paybook (or any number of other things). Its not rocket-science; it was a frequent occurrence.

Tom

nb - edit - You can post official documents till you're blue in the face - I'm talking about what actually happened, not what "the book" said should happen.

[johnboy]

Sorry Tom I am not ab etting man either. Some of us have tried to show examples of what we are saying only for you to tell us we are wrong but without any evidence.

nb - edit - You can post official documents till you're blue in the face - I'm talking about what actually happened, not what "the book" said should happen.

That just about sums it up. You weren't there but insist you are right.

As far as I am concerned the original poster seems intelligent enough to accept the explanations and rvidence given so there is no more to say.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Darn - I could have used the £500

I'm fascinated by this rigid approach to problem resolution. A sort of Civil Servant line which dictates that rules are rules and anything laid down at any time must be adhered to absolutely, and no deviation to allow for local conditions or developments is to be permitted. Its a bit like people going to a pelican crossing where it is widely known that passing motorists habitually ignore the lights and just speed through, - and the people look at the green crossing light and say - its green, the rules say we cross now - and step into the speeding traffic. The rules have been complied with, - but its the wrong decision.

Here's an account from the Australian AWM database which illustrates one of the principle reasons why " the claim that a British soldier who was killed during WW1 would, de facto, be carrying a will (of any kind) and / or a pay book." is incorrect. This example is easy reading, and the methodology described was established by the British and adopted by all of the Colonial / Dominion armies.

Even the "British Army" wasn't stupid enough to (continue to) enforce a rule which was so clearly against it's own interests.

Tom