Guest Bert Posted 19 September , 2004 Share Posted 19 September , 2004 This handsome Welsh Dragon measures 2 5/16 inches long (60 mm) by 2 3/8 inches high (58 mm). I have had it in the collection - tentatively identified as a puggaree (or pagri, if you prefer) badge for the 2d Bn, Monmouthshire Regiment - for some time. But I'm not really certain... Colour-Serjeants wore regimental badges of this size over their chevrons, up until the early years of the twentieth century. Any opinions, comments, or animadversions, will be gratefully received and acknowledged. Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 19 September , 2004 Share Posted 19 September , 2004 Bert....Could be a pag badge, size is too big for a cap. Officers of the second bn had a scroll beneath the dragon and the badge was in silver or bronze. Don't know about the OR's, scroll or not. My best guess would be based on the type of fastener provided. If it is a long tongue type, it is possibly a pag badge. If it has a split pin arrangement on the back, my best guess would be a sergeants arm badge. Doubtless someone out there has the exact answer you seek. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 20 September , 2004 Share Posted 20 September , 2004 A tip of the rusty stahlhelm to Herr Doktor for his esteemed comments. Unquestionably too large for a cap badge. It does not have a slider bar, but lugs. I have seen NCOs' arm badges with fold-overs (like an officer's OSD cap badge) and with lugs (especially the later cavalry ones). I would have been content with my tentative Monmouthshire identification, except that (1) the Welsh Regiment's dragon is almost identical, and (2) that neither the Welsh's dragon (as seen on the collar badge) nor the Monmouthshire Dragon stand on a torse (the twisty thing at the bottom) but on a conventional stylized ground. V. many thanks. Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 20 September , 2004 Share Posted 20 September , 2004 Bert, I came. I saw, I foundered. Betcha it is a sergeants arm badge though. As you know, the 1st Monmouths wore a brass badge and I think the 2nd Monmouths wore a nickel cap badge, but what the heck, that doesn't mean the arm badges had to be that material. Then again, maybe the Welsh........ Anyway, I gave it my best shot. I will have to wait until someone publishes a book on pag badges and sergeant's arm badges. Someday.....? DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 20 September , 2004 Share Posted 20 September , 2004 Yes, I also incline towards the NCOs' arm badge theory, especially since the majority of these were in brass (even where the cap badge was white or bi-metal). Exception were the nice silver cavalry ones. A book (even an abbreviated Arms & Armour effort) on the other metal insignia (arm badges, trade badges, etc.) would be v. welcome indeed. Once again, v. many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 Well Bert, Insofar as trade badges go, I have a "bible" compilied by Edwards and Langley called "British Army Proficiency Badges," published in 1984. It is a gem. Oversized and 136 pages long, it is a dandy. But trade, appointment and proficiency badges only. Still looking for the pag and arm badges book. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 I don't know what a 'pag' is so cannot comment. Regarding NCO arm badges in the infantry, other than the usual crown, gun, grenade, crossed rifles, crossed signalling flags, horse shoe, hammer and pincers, gred cross etc ..... , there were very few peculiar to a unit, unless I have missed a whole avenue of exploration. Can someone start a list, please? Bert perhaps, who knows a thing or two about Colour Sergeants' embellishments? However, the cavalry HAVE been dealt with: the magnificent "Cavalry Warrant Officers' and Non-Commissioned Officers' Arm Badges" by David Linaker and Gordon Dine, ISBN 0 9510603 3 3, published 1997 by the Military Historical Society. One of the most beautiful books in my collection. Buy one today if you can. David Langley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 whhoooops. For 'gred cross' please read 'red cross'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 Thank you, gentlemen. I shall go on the ABE site and see if I can find copies of the books you so kindly recommended, in reasonable condition. This isn't so simple anymore, as secondhand bookselling - once an honourable trade - has become infested with mountebanks and scalawags of all descriptions. Pity. I have heard of the Edwards & Langley work, mentioned by Herr Doktor but have never seen a copy. The Linaker & Dine book I was completely unaware of. I should be most happy to oblige Langley Baston with a list of the regimental arm badges worn by Colour-Serjeants, if I was aware of more than a handful, spotted in photographs, or read about in descriptions. These badges (and Colour-Serjeants) did not - generally speaking - survive into the Great War period, so that they lie a little outside of my interests. Once again, v. many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 For Mr. Langley.... A "pag" badge, in the US anyway, is short for puggaree or pagri, the strip of cloth worn around the Foreign Service Helmet worn by the Brits and CW troops, but not the Indian Army puggaree or "turban" as the unsophisticated call it. I will go looking for the Cavalry book as well. The arm badges worn by colour sgts and other NCO's was probably a tribal, 1930's affectation, since the "old red rag" was no longer worn. I have several brass ones allegedly worn by NCO's of the PBI. regards, DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 Dr B. Can you please tell me/ show me these tribal CSgt badges ...... total blank for me. And I thought I knew about these things. I am now educated on Pag! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 21 September , 2004 Share Posted 21 September , 2004 For David... I will be happy to write the details for you, but must beg off for a few hours as I have some "Honeydew" (Honey, do.....) things to perform. Will write more later. Regards, DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 September , 2004 Share Posted 22 September , 2004 Dr B: thank you. I just have a list of jobbies to wade through, then I get a tick in the box. List grows longer, not shorter. Oh well ............- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 23 September , 2004 Share Posted 23 September , 2004 David and Bert (if you are interested) I can only imagine that I sold off some of the sgt and colours stuff, but I still have two. I will attempt to describe them as I still have not mastered the art of transferring pictures to the forum. The first might be a cavalry one. Stamped nickel and possibly silver plated. Irish harp and crown, strings voided, with script "Quis Separabit" beneath. Size is 4.5 cm high by 3.5 cms wide. Split-pin fasteners located north and south on the back. No makers name. Pins appear to be white metal and "sweated" on. It reads like the 8th Irish Hussars, but the strings on the harp are voided, not solid as Davis mentions in his book "British Army Uniforms and Insignia of World War Two." Now, here is the kicker. The harp and female face to the observers right, not left as the other Irish ones do, ergo, it must be an arm badge. Can't be a collar, too big. Maybe post WWII? The second in my collection the brass eagle of Napoleonic times. All brass, stamped, split-pin lugs, copper, east and west. No makers name. Underneath the eagle is a small tablet bearing the number "8" which would mean it was worn by the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Eagle faces the observers right, which is proper. Size is 3.5 cms wide by 4.00 cms tall. Sold to me as a sergeant's arm badge, worn on the chevrons as the cavalry ones were. Now, either I have been led astray, which would not surprise me, ot this is a tribal affectation which flourished after WWII. Now, it is possible that this badge was worn by the pipers of the Royal Irish Rangers as the three regiments which were amalgated into one wore the three regtl badges on their saffron kilts. But, this one is not regtl for the Irish Fusiliers! I cannot find mention of this regtl designation anywhere in my books, so maybe this is just an abberation. I would appreciate any light you could shed on this for me. I have been collecting for 25 years and I still consider myself a novice and still have a lot to learn. Thank you DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 24 September , 2004 Share Posted 24 September , 2004 Herr Doktor B I am indeed interested - very many thanks for your observations. Although there was a pattern (embroidered) arm badge for Colour-Serjeants since early Victorian times (two colours - sometimes one - worn above the chevrons), some of the regiments specified (and paid for) their own patterns. The practice of wearing metal arm badges (either above, or even upon, the chevrons) lingered as late as the 1939-1945 war, as can be seen in the book you mention, British Army Uniforms & Insignia... by B. L. Davis. The best photograph is on page 141, depicting a Regimental Police serjeant wearing the crowned harp upon his chevrons. The brass ones I've seen in collections and/or photographs are all said to date from the 1902-1914 period, which is where I think my dragon fits in. Pure speculation, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 24 September , 2004 Share Posted 24 September , 2004 Many thanks, Bert, but, oh dear...The mystery deepens. I looked at that picture you mentioned and the badge faces backwards from mine, so it isn't the Eighth Hussars. I would not think that the regtml police would be caught, seen or photographed, especially with HM, wearing a badge facing the "wrong" direction. Hari-kiri is not a choice, but I almost feel fustrated enough to fall on my sword. Problem is, the darn thing isn't sharp enough to finish the job properly. In anguish and ignorance, DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 24 September , 2004 Share Posted 24 September , 2004 Yes, I noticed that, but I wouldn't attach too much importance to it. I know from personal experience that soldiers pay very little attention to minor details - that's why serjeant-majors are so necessary. This chap in the photograph merely fastened the wrong 'side' of the matched pair on his chevrons and thought nothing of it. In my time it was quite common for commanding officers (who should know better) to authorize insignia that was heraldically inaccurate (i.e., depicted animals facing to the wearer's left) and no one noticed or cared very much. Only collectors and enthusiasts find these points significant. I say, you musn't consider destroying yourself - we need all of the gentlemen we can muster in these wretched days, what? I'm sure soon some extremely- knowledgeable-but-modest person will come along and put both of us on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 24 September , 2004 Share Posted 24 September , 2004 Thank you for your kind words of consolation. I shall wipe the tears from my eyes and carry on. (I may still sharpen my sword, one each, officer's pattern, USN) Perhaps Roger (where are you Roger?) can shed some light on this dilemma. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 I think DrB's arm badges are cavalry and will look in Linaker and Dine. What no-one has come up with yet is a CSgt regimental variation on the original single chevron/flag/crown, or the later 3 chevrons/ crossed union/ flags crown [And I do know that they are not really heraldic chevrons, being wrong way up]. Life's a mystery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Linaker and Dine make it clear that the harp can be voided or unvoided.. But which crown, please? No mention of motto either. As for the eagle ....... Do you belong to MHS? Worth a query, they have a regular section on "what is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Quis separabit is motto IG. Possibly an IG pipe band badge? Here, I am so far out of my depth: someone ask me a RWF question, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Very well. Have you examined (or have in your possesion) any unquestionably pre-1915 Royal Welsh Fusiliers cap badges, and if so, are you able to comment, without extensive qualification, upon the nature of the alloy from which they were struck? Would you say gilding metal (95% copper, 5% zinc) or red brass (85% copper, 15% zinc), or something yellower (like Muntz metal, composed of 60% copper, 40% zinc, which is what I believe the 'economy' badges were struck from). Your comments and/or opinions would be very welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Sorry: you must be hard of hearing! I said 'meteorologist', not 'metallurgist'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 For Roger....."Quis Separabat" motto as mentioned. Also the motto of several other Irish regiments. Crown (sorry 'bout omitting that) is KC. I would like to know the address of MHS if you have it. Even after collecting for many, many years, I remain somewhat naive and still a "Donny Dumb-S---" when it comes to this esoteric stuff. "Bingo" on the RWF. I looked at mine, I believe it is genuine. Bimetal POW plumes with crown in middle, and title and grenade also bimetal, (gilting metal and white metal or nickel) Spelling is the old "Welsh" not the post '20 "Welch." Bert...Eagle is yellow brass which suggests either a later strike or a restrike/forgery. Also, what is an "unquestionably pre-1915" RWF badge? How does it differ from the others? Hope springs eternal.... DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Military Historical Society is: Hon. Editor Lt Col RJ Wyatt MBE TD 33 Sturges Road, Wokingham, Berkshire RG40 2HG, United Kingdom. He will be able to point you in right direction, including to Membership Secretary. The Bulletin is excellent, well worth the membership fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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