RNAS uniforms.

[ARABIS]

11 hours ago, seaJane said:

Usual CPO RN cap badge as modelled by my grandfather

 

Sorry seaJane but this CPO cap badge is post 1920 when the wreath was added.

[seaJane]

I do beg your pardon Arabis! (and Lee, too) That correlates with his having his medals up, of course. 

 

One more photo for Frogsmile, with further apologies to Lee for hijacking the original question - my grandfather, the Boy

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, seaJane said:

I do beg your pardon Arabis! (and Lee, too) That correlates with his having his medals up, of course. 

 

One more photo for Frogsmile, with further apologies to Lee for hijacking the original question - my grandfather, the Boy

 

 

 

A strapping young man rather than Boy, methinks.  He must be close to 17 there.  The life was tough and physical.  Rather bizarrely by modern tastes there was also a pronounced culture of corporal punishment, and few Boys escaped highly formalised beatings from the Bosun during their service.  It continued right through until 1956 and caused quite a lot of controversy that did not serve the RN well after WW2.

Edited 4 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[gwalchmai1]

Superb. Thanks Frogsmile 

[Harper]

My uncle CVC Wright was a pilot in the RNAS/RAF (1917-1919) and a photo of him in his RNAS uniform is attached.

My father said that he was very proud of his RNAS uniform.  After April 1918 the ex RNAS men were not required to buy new RAF uniforms until their RNAS uniforms wore out.  Therefore these ex RNAS officers went to great lengths, including visits to Saville Row, to keep the old uniform going as long as possible.

 

[Phil Wood]

I have a picture of a sailor in the very recogniseable navy uniform.  On his head is the usual headgear for an rating.  But the name ribbon ends (it seems to me) 'ING CORPS.

 

The man pictured is Harry George Lovelock, DSM - a gunlayer with the RNAS who died when the plane he was in was shot down by AA fire in 1918 (pre RAF).

 

Could a navy man really be wearing a ROYAL FLYING CORPS ribbon?  Or is their a more nautical explanation?

 

The picture was printed in a local paper in 1918 at the time he received the DSM - I have no idea when it was taken.

 

'

[rolt968]

There was originally a naval section/branch of the Royal Flying Corps, but that would be long before 1918, indeed before the war I think. I will need to look it up. I am sure someone will have a clearer answer before I get back.

 

RM

[horatio2]

Lovelock was an RN seaman rating who moved over to the RNAS where he became an aircraft mechanic, retaining his seaman's Official Number, J.26402. He enlisted as a 16 year old boy in 1913 before the RNAS came into being and is almost certainly wearing a Royal Flying Corps (Naval Wing) cap tally of the pre-RNAS era.

Edited 23 January , 2018 by horatio2

[Phil Wood]

He seems to have become an AM in July 1915 - by which time the RNAS was around. So, assuming it is an RFC tally (thanks for the terminology) the photo was, I guess, taken while he was training to become an AM?  I see from Wikipedia that the RNAS was the naval wing of the RFC for the first year of its existance (Jul 14-Jul 15?) which would encompass his training which was presumably during his posting to President II Apr-Jul 1915. I would also hazard a guess that the naval uniform would be worn while training?

[rolt968]

2 minutes ago, Phil Wood said:

He seems to have become an AM in July 1915 - by which time the RNAS was around. So, assuming it is an RFC tally (thanks for the terminology) the photo was, I guess, taken while he was training to become an AM?  I see from Wikipedia that the RNAS was the naval wing of the RFC for the first year of its existance (Jul 14-Jul 15?) which would encompass his training which was presumably during his posting to President II Apr-Jul 1915. I would also hazard a guess that the naval uniform would be worn while training?

He would certainly have worn naval uniform. There are pictures in an Osprey book (which I have not found yet) which shows ratings in RN uniform including some wearing the "Sennet" hat at Upavon (I think).

 

Thank you for the dates that saves me having to look them up.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Phil Wood said:

He seems to have become an AM in July 1915 - by which time the RNAS was around. So, assuming it is an RFC tally (thanks for the terminology) the photo was, I guess, taken while he was training to become an AM?  I see from Wikipedia that the RNAS was the naval wing of the RFC for the first year of its existance (Jul 14-Jul 15?) which would encompass his training which was presumably during his posting to President II Apr-Jul 1915. I would also hazard a guess that the naval uniform would be worn while training?

 

According to recorded wisdom the RNAS ceased being the Naval Wing of the RFC on August 1st 1915.

Edited 23 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MikeMeech]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

According to recorded wisdom the RNAS ceased being the Naval Wing of the RFC on August 1st 1915.

Hi

 

According to 'The Royal Air Force in the Great War' (IWM 1996 reprint of AP125 of 1936) page 22 the: "...Royal Naval Air Service, came into effect on the 1st July, 1914."

 

Previously it had been the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps, which also had the Military Wing and the Central Flying School (CFS).  At the CFS personnel in both naval and army uniforms were common, there are a fair few photographs that show this.

 

Mike

[horatio2]

55 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Previously it had been the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps

 

It remained so after 1 July 1914. The "Re-organisation Scheme" promulgated by the Admiralty in the Circular Letter dated 22 June 1914 stated "...The Royal Naval Air Service, forming the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps, will comprise all naval aircraft and personnel, either for active or reserve service, and will be administered by the Admiralty. ... The Military Wing and its Reserve and the Central Flying School will be administered by the War Office. A portion of the staff of the Central Flying School will be drawn from the Naval Wing". The further general re-organisation of the RNAS in August/September 1915, separated the RNAS from the RFC, centralised all naval flying training, took it away from CFS and eventually established the naval school at Cranwell.

[Phil Wood]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

According to recorded wisdom the RNAS ceased being the Naval Wing of the RFC on August 1st 1915.

 

I was about to comment on the date. 

 

So this fits well with the photo be taken during his training in Apr/Jul 1915 - assuming this was when he was trained.

 

However, his service around that time was:

HMS Irresistable 26 Aug 1914 - 30 Sep 1914

Victory I  1 Oct 1914 - 21 Oct 1914

Pembroke II 22 Oct 1914 - 31 Mar 1915

President II 1 Apr 1915 - 30 Jul 1915

30 Jul 1915 was his 18th birthday (or so the RN believed); he signed up for 12 years and was regraded Ordinary Seaman from Boy II and classified Air Mechanic II. 

President II (3 Wing, France) 1 Aug - 1915

 

I assumed his AM training was the Apr/Jul stint, but Pembroke II was (according to Wikipedia) the  Royal Naval Air Station at Eastchurch, if so his involvement with the RNAS dates from Oct 1914.

 

Also interesting to note that they sent an 18 year old to France - when the Army would only (in theory) send 19 year olds or older.

 

 

[Robert Rytir]

Here are 2 photos of an Australian that joined and flew with the RNAS.

 

Cheers Rob

[FROGSMILE]

Looks like the early pattern paler blue RAF uniform in the second photo and a very fine, crisp image of it too.

Edited 25 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Alan Bentley]

This appears to be an RNAS Air Mech badge ,but in the wrong colour. Is this early RAF insignia?

[Alan Bentley]

My father (RNAS) with his brother (RA)

[Sepoy]

On 23/01/2018 at 16:22, Phil Wood said:

I have a picture of a sailor in the very recogniseable navy uniform.  On his head is the usual headgear for an rating.  But the name ribbon ends (it seems to me) 'ING CORPS.

 

The man pictured is Harry George Lovelock, DSM - a gunlayer with the RNAS who died when the plane he was in was shot down by AA fire in 1918 (pre RAF).

 

Could a navy man really be wearing a ROYAL FLYING CORPS ribbon?  Or is their a more nautical explanation?

 

The picture was printed in a local paper in 1918 at the time he received the DSM - I have no idea when it was taken.

 

'

Here is a clearer example of a Royal Flying Corps (Naval Wing) cap tally being worn. I assume that they were worn between 1912 and July 1914 when the RNAS was formed.

Sepoy

[Robert Rytir]

Very interesting photo ??

 

 

3 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

Here is a clearer example of a Royal Flying Corps (Naval Wing) cap tally being worn. I assume that they were worn between 1912 and July 1914 when the RNAS was formed.

Sepoy

 

[seaJane]

I have a cutting somewhere (must look it up) which made it clear how much the RN/RNAS were involved in the formation of the RFC to the point where a definite decision had to be made about uniform policy. I guess that your pictures are all part of that, Trevor

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Sepoy said:

Here is a clearer example of a Royal Flying Corps (Naval Wing) cap tally being worn. I assume that they were worn between 1912 and July 1914 when the RNAS was formed.

Sepoy

 

I do not know when the RNAS element (as it became) ceased wearing the Royal Flying Corps cap tally, but I imagine that it was likely in August 1915, when the Naval Arm made a concerted decision to seek its own distinct identity, entirely separate from the Army element.  It will be interesting to see what m’learned friend SeaJane can find.

Edited 5 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Phil Wood]

Thanks Sepoy, the picture certainly makes it clear!

[seaJane]

On 05/11/2018 at 00:18, FROGSMILE said:

It will be interesting to see what m’learned friend SeaJane can find.

Thanks a lot. 

I'll see what I can find out - but only after someone else has tried Wikipedia and the Fleet Air Arm Museum website please! (if they don't know about the RNAS, who does?)

 

 

Edited 18 November , 2018 by seaJane

[TomWW1]

On 30/08/2013 at 19:58, Lancashire Fusilier said:

Here is the RNAS Enlisted Man's cap badge.

I have a photo of my great great grandfather Albert Edward Ford wearing this maybe he is in a group photo here