A strange place somewhere near Laventie

[sneakyimp]

Holy mackerel! What are these awesome maps? Am I right in understanding that the first one (0169) is from Nov 1914 and the second (0190) is from Mar 1, 1915?

What's the date on the trench map? And where can I find such maps? Would love some way to get a front-line depiction and ideally a trench map for some arbitrary date/location.

[spof]

Yes. The maps are dated 12 Nov 1914 and 1 March 1915. They are held in the UK National Archives in Kew in reference WO 153/51 and WO 153/52.

The trench map is from 1916 around the time of the British/Australian Attack on Fromelles in July 1916.. The front line hadn't altered but the German defences were tightened up a lot after the disastrous Battle of Aubers on 9 May 1915 when the 8th Division moved north after Neuve Chapelle. There are free maps available from McMaster University. Click on Map 36 from here. Others can be bought from various places.

As the Canadians were only in the area for a short time, there may be some more localised maps in the Brigade and Division war diaries.

[sneakyimp]

And a trench map

SPOF, your trench map looks extremely interesting. I have a couple of questions:

1) Why is there only a single trench line southest of La Boutillerie? I was under the impression that there was a front line trench, a support trench, and a reserve trench in most cases -- certainly by 1916 which is the date you have given for this map. You can definitely see such detail in the left half of the map.

2) Am I correct in understanding that the red lines would be german trenches? If so, are they not pretty darn close to each other? I've been comparing that trench map to this map whose scale suggests the distance from Rue des Turcs to Rue de la Boutillerie would be about 400-500 meters. This suggests a distance between the lines of about 200m.

3) WOW WOW WOW this map is great. Any thoughts on how to get a higher resolution version -- especially one from March 1915?

[MBrockway]

Re #1 - IIRC, detail of Allied trenches was not included on earlier trench maps in case the maps got captured.

[spof]

Sneakyimp

1) See MBrockway's post. Earlier maps did not show British details for security reasons.

2) The distance between trenches varied. In some places. Around square 10 it was only about 80-100 yards while in others it was up to 500 yards. This is why the 8th Division in May 1915 and the 5th Australian Division in July 1916 were able to capture and briefly hold the same sections of trenches while on their flanks, the men didn't get as far.

3) PM me an email address.

Glen

[sneakyimp]

In Feb/Mar 1915, what would front-line trenches at La Boutillerie be like? I'm expecting from other reading (Tommy at Ypres, Undertones of War, General Jack's Diary) that the place would be extremely muddy and messy. Would it be a breastworks or a proper trench? Would you have corpses everywhere (e.g., in the parapet and underfoot) or perhaps graves about like you do in some of the nasty sectors? Or would this be more pristine trenchworks? I have not yet seen any specific accounts of heavy fighting in this sector prior to Feb/Mar 1915 and, unless I'm mistaken, it's pretty quiet until Neuve Chapelle around Mar 10, 1915.

I'd greatly appreciate any detail you folks might provide about this sector. I'm writing a bit on the Canadian 7th Battalion who relieved the Bedfordshire Regt at La Boutillerie on March 2nd, 1915. Curious about trench conditions, prior conflicts in the area, etc.

[MBrockway]

Would you have corpses everywhere (e.g., in the parapet and underfoot) or perhaps graves about like you do in some of the nasty sectors?

An unfortunate turn of phrase so soon after Remembrance Day. This was where my grandfather first went into the firing line and no doubt some of the those who fell here were his friends

[sneakyimp]

An unfortunate turn of phrase so soon after Remembrance Day. This was where my grandfather first went into the firing line and no doubt some of the those who fell here were his friends

I truly apologize. That was pretty insensitively phrased. Here in the US, remembrance day is not so poignant as I expect it is in Britain. And it doesn't excuse my action, but I also have been exposed through some of my reading (mostly first-hand accounts) to some pretty matter-of-fact phrasing. I really hope I haven't offended you (or anyone else).