Miscellaneous Rifles, Swords and Bayonets

[SteveMarsdin]

Good afternoon,

I have been a member of the forum for several years. As part of my job I assist in the organisation of auctions and occasionally we get military lots, which I research myself, sometimes supplementing my research with the help of GWF colleagues where the items are WW1 related. I always declare my reasons and I would hope that some of the information I give and that others provide is of general interest too. Usually the items are medals, death plaques etc. but we have recently received several guns, bayonets and swords, amongst other militaria, some of which are of WW1 vintage. I shall be spending an interesting time cataloguing these !

I know some of the swords are modern but I believe the guns are, from top to bottom:

1. Martini Henry
   
2. ?
   
3. SMLE
   
4. Mousqueton d'artillerie Gras M80 Mle 1874
   
5. Mauser (Swedish)
   

I can find the deactivation proof marks on 1, 3. 4 and 5 but not on 2 (!). The deactivation certificate for 4. says it's from St.Etienne but I read the name as Tulle, which I think is confirmed by the letter code of "T" next to the year of manufacture.

[4thGordons]

The SMLE is a nice one - it looks like it is a MkI*** but retains its MkI rear handguard - check to see if it has CR or ER prefixed serial number (if so it is probably one of a batch supplied to Ireland inter-war) Does it still have the volley sights intact on the opposite side? Chris

BTW I think the unidentified rifle is a German GEW 43 (semi-auto. 7.92mm) missing mag.

Edit: I think your second bayonet down will fit the Martini unless it has been converted to .303 (which it doesn't look like but...), the bottom bayonet of course will fit the SMLE

Edited 26 June , 2013 by 4thGordons

[ServiceRumDiluted]

I'd agree that the second one down is a G43 minus the box magazine. But I'm no expert!

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks for your replies; I'll check the sights on the SMLE tomorrow.

Yes, it is a MkI ***

[SteveMarsdin]

I've just looked through my photos and I think this is the bayonet for the mousqueton (for some reasom, I didn't take a full photo !)

[Pierce09]

i want that SMLE!!! beautiful pieces

[shippingsteel]

Regarding the identification of the bayonets, they appear to be the following (from top to bottom)

1. Finnish M1935, probably made by Fiskars

2. British P1887, Mk.III with no fuller, usually marked Wilkinson as maker, with Indian issue scabbard (brass fittings)

3. Czech VZ24, possibly marked CSZ as maker

4. British P1907, with what looks to be a refurbished blade, early teardrop scabbard

The brass handle bayonet in the separate photo is the French M1866 for the Chassepot rifle. Not sure if it fits the Musquetoon.?

Cheers, S>S

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks for your replies,

The brass handle bayonet in the separate photo is the French M1866 for the Chassepot rifle. Not sure if it fits the Musquetoon.?

Cheers, S>S

I've just tried it, it does ! It seems the heaviest of all the guns and with the bayonet attached even more unwieldy !

Here's the other bayonets' photo I forgot to post yesterday (the rest on it are lot more modern)

You're right about Fiskars and Wilkinson as makers.

[SteveMarsdin]

Here's the other two British rifles with bayonets attached:

[SteveMarsdin]

The SMLE is a nice one

Thanks, Chris.

Here are some close ups from the SMLE:

[SteveMarsdin]

And the markings off the Martini-Henry, Mauser and Gewehr 43:

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

regarding the bayonets in post 8, the top one is a No.4 Mk II spike bayonet with a rare (one of 25000) experimental Mk II scabbard.

the second is a M1941 Spanish Mauser Bolo bayonet.

third is an American M5 bayonet missing its M8 scabbard.

and the fourth is the prior mentioned chassepot bayonet

hope this helps

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

and the SMLE has been stamped DP as it was at some point in its life relegated to drill purpose duties

[SteveMarsdin]

and the SMLE has been stamped DP as it was at some point in its life relegated to drill purpose duties

Thanks for the additional info.

I think the Gras M80 Mle 1874 was adapted from the Chassepot, so presumably they continued with the same bayonet and fitment.

[N White]

Gras are indeed basically modified Chassepot, but specifically the Chassepot style bayonet was retained for carbines. Converted Chassepot and new manufacture Gras received new made bayonets.

Converted Chassepots had new bolts and bayonets made by Steyr. These are the ones marked Ursine de Steyr. The M80 designation is for a gas escape cut in the receiver, immediately to the rear of the chamber.

You might say that I like Gras.

[SteveMarsdin]

Quite a collection ! Thanks for the extra info.

The engraving on the gun is very feint. I orihinally read it as "Mle 1873" and "R4.80" but on reinspection i'm convinced it is "Mle 1874" and "M.80" (only the Mle187 and .80 portions are reasonably clear). On the deactivation certificate it states St.Etienne but the year stamp clearly states T1886 which I think indicates the factory at Tulle. The only part of the maker's lettering that is easy to read is "manufacture d'armes...." the rest could read St Etienne or Tulle, it's in script and so feint !)

[SteveMarsdin]

Re post#11 and the Martini-Henry:

I'm a bit confused by the date as I didn't think the Mk II came in until later, the date stamp clearly shows 1875.

[4thGordons]

Re post#11 and the Martini-Henry:

I'm a bit confused by the date as I didn't think the Mk II came in until later, the date stamp clearly shows 1875.

I am out of my area of knowledge here as my experience of M-H is largely restricted to the couple I own but is it possible this is a MkI upgraded to MkII status? the II does not appear to be centered on the proof above - almost as though one "I" has been added.(this is often an indication of upgrades on British rifles)

Your rifle does appear (insofar as I can see) to have the larger cocking indicator which I think was fitted to MkI rifles but replaced with a smaller one from MkII on -- so perhaps that is an indication of an upgrade too = the smaller indicator was introduced in 1877

Indeed the MkII was approved in 1877 (SAIS No51 p 6)

By the way the 2 at the bottom indicates it was, at some point in it's service, downgraded to "second class"

Another indicator of a rifle that started as a MkI might be if it has retained the MkI pattern rear sight cap which is a slightly different design than the MkII.

Chris

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Steve

As regards the swords in your original post, the top two look like naval cutlasses (not sure if they are British or not), the next one looks like a standard British infantry officer's sword (though if the blade is straight, it could be the Pattern 1908 cavalry sword), the next one is a British (?) general officer's sword and the bottom one is a Highland claymore.

Ron

[SteveMarsdin]

Thanks Chris and Ron,

Good spot Chris. Yes, the first "I" is centred as you say; I'd looked at examples of upgraded M-H rifles markings but in those I'd seen you could more easily spot that the two "I"s weren't aligned.

Ron,the first two British swords you mention fit the scenario of where they're from; i'll have a further look at the markings on them all, particularly the bottom one.

I'm conscious, particularly with the swords, that there is probably limited WW1 relevance; many thanks for indulging me and helping in my research.

[Guest exuser1]

Regarding the swords ,the top one seems to be a continental infantry hanger possibly French ,the one below again continental ,but when looking at the bottom 2 and a closer photograph may help they do have a look of World Wide Arms about them ?

[SteveMarsdin]

The top one has a makers stamp "artilleria de toledo".

The second one has no identifiable marks

The third and fourth are Wilkinson's and I am certain they're British officers' swords.

The fifth has no markings

Having googled "World Wide Arms" I'm none the wiser ?!?

[SteveMarsdin]

Here are some close ups from the third and fourth swords:

Third sword

Fourth sword

[SteveMarsdin]

And continuing with the fourth sword.

[SteveMarsdin]

I think the fourth is an 1831 pattern British Army General officer's sword and the third is an 1897 pattern British Army infantry officer's sword