Guest Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 I can't help but notice that a particular family history subscription site's name is peppered liberally across the GWF. If they have any sense of proportion, they would keep their lawyers in check, and relish the huge amount of free target marketing that accompanies innumerable mentions on the GWF. Kate, it is not the prerogative of the GWF or its members to decide that they can reproduce copyright material and pretend it is 'free advertising'. It isn't. It is called copyright infringement. If you had written a book, sold it online and someone copied it or parts of it and passed it on for free it would be the same. Just ask the authors out there. When these genealogy businesses decide to take action it could potentially cost the GWF a considerable amount of money. That is not in the interests of the GWF members and those who choose to donate to keep this wonderful site running. Edit: It only costs a paltry £3.36 to get most of these same documents from the National Archives. Why the GWF would risk its good reputation and potential lawsuits for people who break the law to save a measly £3.36 is beyond me. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 Martin, I do not pretend anything. I'm aware of our responsibilities, and the problems caused by members who ignore rules already in place. As I mentioned before, perhaps using the ban filter could curtail the problem. It would at least interrupt most of the unwelcome requests at source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 Edit: It only costs a paltry £3.36 to get most of these same documents from the National Archives. Why the GWF would risk its good reputation and potential lawsuits for people who break the law to save a measly £3.36 is beyond me. MG Martin, I think a little care is needed here. A number of years ago I used to write course content for various diploma and degree level courses. A certain amount of copying and reproduction of texts was essential and permittable, with the proviso that acknowledgements to copyright were provided, in both research and Education. I would assume that Para 7.1 (P-01) of the notes for copyright (http://www.copyright...ocs/edupack.pdf) would tend to support that the acquisition and publication of the data you are suggesting for education and research purposes is in fact perfectly legitimate. Searches by commission I would have thought are far likely to be a matter of breach of contract with 'Family Search' rules rather than breach of copyright by proxy by the GWF. I would still say that any unacknowledged copying of any other persons work or property is poor practice even if not necessarily in breach of publishing legislation. Call for the lawyers: claret and cheese and brandy and cigars all round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 Suddery, I completely agree with your point on education, research etc...as per my original post. My issue is when people cut-and paste whole documents and send them on, it puts the GWF at risk. It can't be put any more simply. The Mods tell us they are aware of it, but I wonder why this subject keeps coming up. I shall now 'cease and desist' from this thread. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 Martin, Please continue posting. I am not disagreeing with your points. The reason the problem persists is, I think, mostly down to new members and infrequent visitors. Most of the regulars are here often enough for the message to have filtered through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazelclark Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 On reading this thread, I should point out that it takes a while for new members to get "into the swing" and know what is acceptable and what is not, and where to find what. Without the help of various people on this site, I would not know a fraction of what I now know about my grandfather and great uncle. Requests for help, in the vast majority of cases, is not a question of saving 3 pounds 36 pence. How many frustrating hours have most of us spent trying to figure out indexing at the N.A. and Ancestry to name a couple of sources. Some people on this site have access to information either unavailable to many of us or unknown to be available. That information is invaluable and very often some tiny piece of information opens up a whole raft of research possibilities. Whilst I would agree that one should be cautious in terms of giving help, pointing out to someone what is available where, and even how to access it is a gift that benefits both the giver and the receiver. Sometimes a little bit of information in the beginning is the stimulus to start a life long interest in the war. Robert, from Australia, helped me get started a couple of years ago. Then Stewart helped me with actual War Diary information, which introduced me to what the soldiers actually did. Since then I have read almost non stop and am slowly developing my own views on the war. I can also help the odd person out, and have made a couple of wonderful friends who have similar interests. All this, from one day deciding to "check out" my grandfather, whom I had never met and whom my granny left in the 20s. I understand caution, but would hate to see the character of the Forum or the Long Long Trail change. Hazel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 Well said Hazel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 I for one love helping people out with info. if I can, I have spent 25 years researching and very happy to pass on the information itself but passing on images of data is a different matter, I would not want to leave these large profit making organisations out of pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierce09 Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 i'm still a newbie and i came on this site initially because although i knew what information i would have liked, i still had no idea. i'm pretty internet savvy i think but i still wasn't aware of what i could get access to or where. thanks to members on this site, pointing me in the right direction, i found nearly everything i wanted and more. i also believe that since i joined and had other members help me, i've started to try and help others as they join with whatever i can. i agree with the comments relating to full 'cut-and-paste' of documents from pay sites being wrong, but giving information from pay sites should be ok. i'm more than willing to look on Ancestry if someone doesn't know a service number for a relative. once done, i'd then recommend the document was paid for. i think this site works very well. there will always be lazy or busy people who'd like the information dropped into their lap but by and large, i think most of the inquiries are fairly harmless and without the generous help from existing members on here, i'd be still groping around in the proverbial dark attempting to find a great grandad's records! P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 I totally agree with the last 4 posts ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 16 June , 2013 Share Posted 16 June , 2013 My understanding of the situation is that:- The information available from the National Archive and subject to Crown Copyright falls under the Open Government Licence (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/) which means it can be freely copied and made available to others but must be used accurately and the source of the material must be identified and the copyright status acknowledged. However, digital images do not fall under the OGL. I read this as meaning that, for example, someone requesting information on the Forum can be sent this this data by another member where the latter has themselves transcribed the data or taken their own images from the source documents. But they could not download images of those documents straight from the National Archive website and send them on. How do others read it? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 17 June , 2013 Share Posted 17 June , 2013 as one who has been given "help" on the forum by other members who I believe myself get great satisfaction on supplying information on their family members who were in ww1. I presume they have annual subscription to the various archive sites, so all it costs them is their time, and as it is more than a hobby to them I think they are only too happy to search for themselves. I, in my own very little way have posted photos and text and emails [plus photo copy one hundred pages and posting overseas] over the last couple of years and was happy to do so. i fully agree in the post that mentioned the medal collectors for instance who just use the members to enhance their items value [surely people like this should have archive access]. again thanks to all who have helped me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 17 June , 2013 Share Posted 17 June , 2013 How do others read it? Exactly as you, Neil. The link given by Martin confirms your summary but, almost needless to say, goes on for 15 pages when probably 15 sentences would have done the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottsGreys Posted 17 June , 2013 Share Posted 17 June , 2013 Ancestry.com apparently doesn't have a problem with its subscribers sharing images of documents directly with specific non-subscribers as there is an "email" link on the image viewer which enables the subscriber to "Share With Family and Friends" The image is accompanied by a message from Ancestry stating something such as "Christopher found an interesting historical record with information about Bernard Greenbaum and is sharing it with you." This is followed by a paragraph extolling Ancestry's virtues as a genealogical resource. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 17 June , 2013 Share Posted 17 June , 2013 Having been a member of the Forum since (I think) 2005, I can say that there have been some mebers who, or who still continue to, annoy me in the questions they ask and the manner they ask them. Where I "know" those members, I ignore requests for information. On the other hand I have learned more since joining this Forum than I have learned anywhere else in a similar time-frame. Many members have been extremely helpful to me and I am happy to reciprocate in my own limited way. Additionally I have several shelves of books which are taken down, dusted off and opened too rarely. if someone asks a question which leads to a book being opened - fine, I'll open the book. Actaually, on the principle that the best way to learn is to teach, opening that book probably results in me learning something too. Yes, there are "bad" members, but frankly they tend to be few and tend to disappear fairly swiftly. Overall I'd say the Forum is definitely a Good Thing, and what's the point of having knowledge if you're not going to share it? Mind you, I'm not sure I have much knowledge so maybe I have less of which to be precious. "Christopher found an interesting historical record with information about Bernard Greenbaum Presumably the fact that Bernard's brother Norman is hitting the Spirits again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 Hi Im still pondering this thread and its implications to the Forum. A member in one of the posts above mentioned members using the Forum for financial gain and this has set me thinking. I am sure most will know I research Walsall and District rolls and all my requests, and there have, admittedly, been a few, relate to this. Where i have had the foresight I use the word Walsall in the thread as this helps me to find it again using the search engine. Using 'Graeme' sometime throws up a strange date order !! Where I am heading is that, perhaps, members should explain WHY they are making the request. Most do say 'Im researching a Great Uncle' or so forth and Im more inclined to help these people although they tend to appear, get the info, and then disappear. Arguing against myself, theres nothing, however, to stop an E-bay dealer telling porkies and then still using the information so gained. Just ramblings !! Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 It's the people who can't be bothered to thank you for help that is increasingly niggling me, not just on posts by me but others too. helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 Ancestry.com apparently doesn't have a problem with its subscribers sharing images of documents directly with specific non-subscribers as there is an "email" link on the image viewer which enables the subscriber to "Share With Family and Friends" The image is accompanied by a message from Ancestry stating something such as "Christopher found an interesting historical record with information about Bernard Greenbaum and is sharing it with you." This is followed by a paragraph extolling Ancestry's virtues as a genealogical resource. Chris The link from the email is available for a limited time, but this facility is very useful. I have 'linked' a friend info. which would have taken ages to transcribe, and, with service records, would have used a lot of ink from my printer. I hope Ancestry don't withdraw this. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 <snip> On the other hand I have learned more since joining this Forum than I have learned anywhere else in a similar time-frame. Many members have been extremely helpful to me and I am happy to reciprocate in my own limited way. <snip> As I said at the GWF Conference, there are now many examples of acknowledgement to the members of this forum and their contribution to recent theses and dissertations and I suspect that most of those that don't, should. Mine certainly will. I feel obliged to try and give something back where I can, but I certainly don't begrudge the obligation. My own subject (which always appears bloody enormous to me) pales into insignificance when placed in the context of what knowledge is exchanged here on a daily basis. Not all of it is historical gold but caveat emptor, and when the goods are free it's not a bad deal. I try to find threads with no responses to reignite or add some value at least. Regards the 'non-thankers', I suspect again that many never find there way back to the forum after asking the question. Some people are just discourteous and some...well they just use a new forum name to protect their real identity; so they fall into the previous category as well. Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 I would like to go on record as making a big "Thank You" to Mr Filsell. I'm not sure what for, but I thought it might keep his pecker up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 As someone who has asked an awful lot of questions on this forum and who also has a subscription to a certain family history site I have always been very grateful for the information that has been freely given on this forum. (I also once made a small donation to Forum funds and should probably do so again). I probably have not been profuse enough in my thanks to each individual contributor to threads that I have started but have thanked people. In return I have shared my limited knowledge with others and have not always been thanked in return. It is something that I can live with. I have also posted a great many photographs from my collection for the delight and benefit of others and have been rewarded with knowledge and expertise from members who have contributed information about them. I have always allowed individuals to use my photographs in their research and publications as long as they acknowledge the source. I have probably spent the price of a small house (in Basingstoke not Knightsbridge) on my collection over the years. My purpose has two aspects, firstly to preserve the memory of the individuals who fought in the Great War and secondly, to ensure that as many of their photographs, letters and documents as possible survive for posterity given the constraints of my limited budget. As the temporary custodian of this collection it makes sense that the collection is shared freely with others so that it can be seen by as wide an audience as possible. If by asking seemingly trivial questions on this forum saves me a day travelling to the National Archives or some other august institution to find a simple fact that someone with some specialist knowledge can answer in moments I am going to ask those simple questions. My latest question has been to ask if anyone can read a barely legible address which is generally not the sort of information provided by the National Archives or available on Ancestry. Apart from being a forum where like minded and passionate people can discuss the Great War, the GWF is a huge research resource and should be used as such. If a few individuals are going to take the Michael so be it. That's how it is these days and probably how it always was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 I have read all the above with interest. I am very new here and appreciate the info that can be gained. When I have been given an answer I try and use key words to google and find out more. It is not that I don't trust the answer but if I have put in some effort to find and read for myself the info seems to stick and then other questions are answered or raised. The views above seem to fall into 2 cataegories, the forum is a club for those with extensive knowledge of the subject who feel that 'newbies' take the mickey those who are happy to use the forum as a tool to educate and open the eyes of others to this fascinating subject. And help the not too distant history to be preserved and added to. Both views are understandable. If someone has info that has been obtained by paid membership of other sites, why not pass it on? Not everyone can afford these subscriptions to find one piece of info. I have given snippets of info which I have found when spending hours trawling the net. It would never occur to me to think twice about giving it because my time was not being paid for. The majority of info on here has been given by people who have obviously spent a lot of their time for free. I came on here looking for one particular answer and now find myself reading all kinds of posts and looking for info elsewhere. My main interest is one particular regiment but my eyes have been opened to all other aspects of the broad subject. I hope I have remembered to thank those who have helped me. If a person does not want to give info from pay sites then don't give it, but think back and see if any info you have recieved has come from similar sources! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 18 June , 2013 Share Posted 18 June , 2013 I`ve read the whole of this thread up to this point, and I`m quite dismayed by some of the posts here. I would have thought there might have been a decisive post from a "legal beagle" concerning the legalities etc, but in the apparent absence of one, surely we could protect the forum by dealing with "specific enquiries" about subscribed info through p.m.`s rather than posting them directly on the site. I don`t know, I`m not a lawyer, but I`m sure we could find our way to still help each other, without putting at risk the good reputation of this great forum. Ever since I joined the forum, I have been delighted with the general spirit involved within. Most people here are not at all "precious" about the information at their disposal, and are more than happy to help answer any genuine enquiries, sometimes holding information or knowledge about someone`s relative, that the person seeking help would never be able to glean for themselves. The knowledge that I had helped someone out in this way would give me so much pleasure, and I hope that one day I may do just that, and what`s more, I hope that I may do that through this very forum, as some kind members have already done for me. So once more, a big thank you to everyone who has taken the trouble to help me, and I hope I can help someone out soon. Best Wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2013 Just a a couple of threads to illustrate my original point, no criticism intended of the members just examples of the free research facility offered by the forum. Thread (15 Posts) http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=195834&hl= And this one where it appears that the member joined just to get the free info (4 Posts) http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=195743&hl= Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartAB Posted 19 June , 2013 Share Posted 19 June , 2013 In expecting 'thanks' for responses, do remember that not everyone has the time to be on here every day! ;-) Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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