Would a young officer be expected to wear his 1914 Star ribbon if enti

[rolt968]

I have a fairly formal photograph of a 2nd Lieutenant in 4/5 Black Watch who was commissioned in the autumn/winter of 1916, appointed to his regiment in January 1917 and rank confirmed in February 1917.

He is not wearing a 1914 Star ribbon to which he would have been entitled. (Annoyingly, the edge of the sleeve is positioned where it is not possible to see clearly if there is a wound stripe (to which he was also entitled)).

Would it be considered inappropriate for him not to wear the 1914 ribbon and hence from its absence I can date the photograph to early 1917/ late 1916?

Roger.

[green_acorn]

By no means am I a gong expert. According to Wikipedia, the 1914 Star was approved in April 1917. So not inappropriate for your gent not to be wearing the medal. I would further guess that during the course of the war the priority for issuing the medal was not high. It was only honours and awards like the VC, MM and so forth that were a priority for presentation once gazetted. I would assume that he would, like so many others, have received his campaign medals post war with his war medals.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Ian Riley]

Ribbons were issued before the end of the war. Just not too many around to wear them. I think the Liverpool Scottish were able to issue about 26 within the battalion when the time came at the end of 1917 or beginning of 1918. Not sure about the 1914-15 Star and whether it was authorised at the same time. I think the issue of the Stars was physically separate to the issue of the BMW and AVM

Ian

[Andrew Upton]

On 21/05/2013 at 01:06, green_acorn said:

...According to Wikipedia, the 1914 Star was approved in April 1917...

1914 Star not authorized until very late 1917, initial issue of ribbon to those entitled from early/mid 1918 when stocks available. 1914-15 Star not authorized until very late 1918, initial issue of ribbon to those entitled from early 1919:

 

So plenty of opportunity for the officer to have his photo taken prior to the issue of the ribbon.

[green_acorn]

1914 Star not authorized until very late 1917, initial issue of ribbon to those entitled from early/mid 1918 when stocks available. 1914-15 Star not authorized until very late 1918, initial issue of ribbon to those entitled from early 1919:

Its not just Wikipedia who are wrong then!

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1-campaign-medals.htm#1914star

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03/14star

http://www.defence.gov.au/medals/Content/+040%20Campaign%20Medals/+150%20World%20War%20I/+010%201914%20Star/

This company at least gives a reference for November as being Special Army order 350. http://www.awardmedals.com/1914-star-full-size-medal-p-453.html?cPath=104_110

Cheers,

Hendo

[Andrew Upton]

Its not just Wikipedia who are wrong then!

Yes, basically the same information cut and pasted ad infinatum from the web. I believe the April date may be when basic design work on the medal began, but it was still very much a gleam in the medal-minters eye at that point...

[rolt968]

Sorry everyone.

I don't seem to have phrased my question clearly; I'll slightly redirect the question.

I knew that the 1914 Star was authorised in April 1917. What I was trying find out was:

Roughly when would someone be likely to receive it? (Assuming that he was on active service with 4/5 Black Watch.)

Would a young officer display his ribbon immediately he received it?

For example, would his colonel insist that he wore it?

(If the answer to the last two is positive, I can date the photograph rougly based on the first one.)

Roger.

[rolt968]

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=130624

So plenty of opportunity for the officer to have his photo taken prior to the issue of the ribbon.

Many thanks for this link. I think my later post crossed yours.

Having known the authorisation date for the 1914 Star I had felt uneasy about definitely dating the photo to pre-April 1917.

Roger.

Edited 20 May , 2013 by rolt968

[rolt968]

Yes, basically the same information cut and pasted ad infinatum from the web. I believe the April date may be when basic design work on the medal began, but it was still very much a gleam in the medal-minters eye at that point...

Thank you for this. Your post crossed my later one. While being suspicious of dating the photo definitely to pre-April 1917, it had not occurred to me that April was only the beginning of the process of issuing the medal.

Roger.

[battiscombe]

I have yet to see a 1914 star ribbon being worn before March 1918 .. where I have dated photos of men known to have qualified for it (and worn it later).. a few 'possible' Feb 1918s. It might be interesting to hear of the earliest we can find a confirmed sighting.... The collection of data as to who qualified was clearly still going on in December 1917, as is often recorded on medal cards.

[rolt968]

I have yet to see a 1914 star ribbon being worn before March 1918 .. where I have dated photos of men known to have qualified for it (and worn it later).. a few 'possible' Feb 1918s. It might be interesting to hear of the earliest we can find a confirmed sighting.... The collection of data as to who qualified was clearly still going on in December 1917, as is often recorded on medal cards.

Thank you.

I had not expected it to be as late as that! I had not thought about collecting data only starting after April 1917.

Roger.

[Ian Riley]

I have yet to see a 1914 star ribbon being worn before March 1918 .. where I have dated photos of men known to have qualified for it (and worn it later).. a few 'possible' Feb 1918s. It might be interesting to hear of the earliest we can find a confirmed sighting.... The collection of data as to who qualified was clearly still going on in December 1917, as is often recorded on medal cards.

From The Liverpool Scottish 1900-1918 (verified from the War Diary)

On 29 January 1918 the Brigade [166th Infantry Brigade] was inspected by the Corps Commander [snow, I think] and afterwards Brigadier General Kentish pinned the newly issued 1914 ribbon on the breasts of all those entitled to wear it. As the Scottish were the first battalion in the Brigade to go to France they, of course, predominated on this parade and numbered sixty five out of a total of about eighty. Not the least proud memory of a proud day for the nineteenfourteeners was the "eyes right" they received from the whole Brigade as it marched past them after the ceremony.

Actually, this is more than I thought from my original response which I recollected at about twenty ish. It would be interesting to know how many were still serving with the actual battalion as I would suspect that some were serving in Brigade HQ, Divisional HQ and various other niches by this time. Still not a bad number for those who went out on 1 November 1914. Additionally, there would be more than a few others who went out at the start who had been commissioned into other battalions. They were still arguing with the War Office (unsuccessfully) about the clasp in the 1940s. A lot just bought their own and stuck them on the medals after the war; they certainly seemed to be training within the range of the German mobile artillery before the end of the qualifying date.

Ian

[battiscombe]

thanks for posting that ..29h Jan is a start.! . That is the sort of diary entry I had expected to see, but never had - to date.

[NigelS]

The Times of Monday 13th Jan 1919 reported that Major-General Feilding, OC of the London District, would be presenting 1914 Stars to men of the Household Cavalry in a ceremony on Horse Guards Parade 'next Thursday' which, not being 'this Thursday', was presumably the 23rd.

From announcements that appeared in the paper over the following months it appears that the medals were issued on a regimental basis in a phased operation. This was the first from The Times of Saturday 11th January 1919

THE ARMY

The Secretary of the War Office announces that the '1914 Star'; for officers and other ranks of the undermentioned regiments is now ready for issue. Applications in the case of officers should be addressed to the Secretary, War Office (AG10), 27, Pilgrim-street, EC4; other ranks should apply to the Officer in Charge of Records concerned:-

Household Cavalry

Foot Guards

Royal Highlanders

Seaforth Highlanders

Gordon Highlanders

Cameron Highlanders

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

This could have been through a combination of completion the medal rolls and availability of the medal; I would guess that priority either way would have gone to men still serving so they could be presented formally.

The earliest that anyone could have been wearing the riband for the '14 star officially would appear to have been around the end of December '17 (that's if they were actually available ) as, according to The Times of the 24th:

The issue and wearing of the Riband of the '1914 Star' form the subject of a new Army Council Instruction. It is notified that preliminary issue of 4in of riband has been sanctioned for each individual now serving who is entitled to the decoration. The '1914 Star' is to be considered a war medal, and must be worn as such. The Riband will be worn with the red edge on the right - i.e., with the red edge furthest from the left shoulder.

A similar announcement in the paper of January 13th '19, relating to the wearing of the riband for those entitled to the '14-15 star, cites paragraph 54 of the dress code regulations and Army Council Instruction 1230 of 1918

NigelS

[dundeesown]

Hi Roger

What was the lads name ?

Gary

[rolt968]

Hi Roger

What was the lads name ?

Gary

Smith Cameron.

He came from Edzell. Went to France on 1 November 1914 with 1/5 RH as a L/Cpl (1786)(MIC & Brechin Advertiser). He was wounded in April/May 1915 as CQMS. He was discharged to commission 25 September 1916 (MIC); joined 4/5 RH as a 2nd Lieutenant 17 January 1917 (Wauchope). Rank confirmed 6 Feb 1917 (LG). He was wounded twice more that I know of (various Dundee Courier). He survived and eventually became a bank manager. He died in 1970. I don't think his officer's record still exists.

I suspect the photo was taken when he was first commissioned.

Roger.

Edited 21 May , 2013 by rolt968

[dundeesown]

Is this any help ? (But you may have this ? )

Gary.

[rolt968]

Is this any help ? (But you may have this ? )

Gary.

Oops!

Many thanks Gary.

I've read the MIC many times and not matched that information up! It should also have occurred to me that being an officer he would have to apply.

(I was probably too busy trying to match up the person with the picture, since all I had to go on was "Capt. S. Cameron, Black Watch" and an association with Edzell UF Church.)

Roger.

Roger.

[ritterk]

New Zealand soldiers were able to 'put up' the 1914-15 Star ribon on their uniforms in 1917 as confirmed by dated photographs of the era....but their papers indicate they were not sent the actual medal until 1921-22. Cheers

[dycer]

The answer may lie in the Battalion Medal Roll,e.g. 8th Royal Scots

"Roll of Individuals entitled to the Decoration granted under Army Order 350 of 1917.

I certify that according to the Official Records the Individuals named in this Roll are entitled to the Decoration as detailed above.

Place Hamilton.

Date January 1918"

George

[rolt968]

Thank you for the last two posts. I had not thought before that people might wear ribbons to which they were entitled, but hadn't yet physically received the medal. (As I have seen in another post.) I think I have now one more thing to look at in the Medal Rolls when I get to TNA next.

Roger.

[nthornton1979]

From The Liverpool Scottish 1900-1918 (verified from the War Diary)

On 29 January 1918 the Brigade [166th Infantry Brigade] was inspected by the Corps Commander [snow, I think] and afterwards Brigadier General Kentish pinned the newly issued 1914 ribbon on the breasts of all those entitled to wear it. As the Scottish were the first battalion in the Brigade to go to France they, of course, predominated on this parade and numbered sixty five out of a total of about eighty. Not the least proud memory of a proud day for the nineteenfourteeners was the "eyes right" they received from the whole Brigade as it marched past them after the ceremony.

Actually, this is more than I thought from my original response which I recollected at about twenty ish. It would be interesting to know how many were still serving with the actual battalion as I would suspect that some were serving in Brigade HQ, Divisional HQ and various other niches by this time. Still not a bad number for those who went out on 1 November 1914. Additionally, there would be more than a few others who went out at the start who had been commissioned into other battalions. They were still arguing with the War Office (unsuccessfully) about the clasp in the 1940s. A lot just bought their own and stuck them on the medals after the war; they certainly seemed to be training within the range of the German mobile artillery before the end of the qualifying date.

Ian

Very useful info Ian, thanks for posting it.

Is this from McGilchrist's book?

I have Hal's book and also the regiment history but not McGilchrist's.

I've got quite a few Liverpool Scottish gallantry groups now, including two 'Maideners', hence my interest.

Neil

[Chester837]

Thank you for the last two posts. I had not thought before that people might wear ribbons to which they were entitled, but hadn't yet physically received the medal. (As I have seen in another post.) I think I have now one more thing to look at in the Medal Rolls when I get to TNA next.

Roger.

Still happens today. The Queens Diamond Jubilee medal ribbon could be worn once eligibility was confirmed, post 6th Feb 2012 but the medal couldn't be worn until the 5th June 2012.

[Ian Riley]

Very useful info Ian, thanks for posting it.

Is this from McGilchrist's book?

I have Hal's book and also the regiment history but not McGilchrist's.

I've got quite a few Liverpool Scottish gallantry groups now, including two 'Maideners', hence my interest.

Neil

Neil,

I consider McGilchrist to be THE regimental history of the Liverpool Scottish for WW1. His research and checking processes were extensive and he collaborated with the highly articulate RQMS RA Scott-Macfie MA (Cantab) BSc (Glasgow) over the text and the maps. If you need a copy and wish to support us please contact me through the Liverpool Scottish website (quick click). There is, however, less personal detail on individual soldiers than in Hal Giblin's Bravest of Hearts. Why not come and visit the archive in Liverpool; we are normally in on Wednesdays but it does need an appointment (through me or Dennis). You may find photos of some of your Maidaners and certainly a (modern) watercolour of the SS Maidan

Ian

[nthornton1979]

Hi Ian,

When I say I have the regiment history I mean the 3 volume set- The King's Regiment (Liverpool) 1914-1919 by Everard Wyrall. This covers the Liverpool Scottish quite well.

The Battalion history by McGilchrist is one I still need to add to my library.

Thanks for the link to your website. I have checked out your site before and will be sure to give you a shout if I am looking to visit.

Many thanks.

Neil