When did the Great War become the First World War?

[centurion]

You use the use of the first world war as evidence of the first use of The First World War. They are different, use of the lower case expression does not prove first use of the phrase with capital letters. Hence my suggestion that you are confusing the two terms.

First prize in boring pedantic hair splitting. Unfortunately you fail to notice the phrase "in the full sense of the word" which would encompass both capitalised and uncapitalised versions.

[Gareth Davies]

I like winning prizes, thank you.

[John_Hartley]

So explain Stalling's book and film of 1935

Never heard of Spalling or her/his book and film, so completely unable to explain whatever it is you wished me to explain. Is it relevent to the discussion? Would it affect my opinion if I was aware of a movie?

[bill24chev]

There seem to be three schools of thought here.

i) There could not be a "First world war" until the Second one started or at least was inevitable

ii) the First world war could be named as such because it was the first global war.

iii) it could not be the First because previous conflicts had taken place involving fighting in many parts of the world.

if option iii)is correct both WW1 & WW2 have the wrong name

however i believe that option two may be correct it being the first truly global war with combatants from every continent and fighting taking place on all continents except N. America.

Which ever is the right option the conflict from 1914 to 18 had a number of notable Firsts, such as powered aviation, mechanised warfare, more casualties caused by enemy action than disease and reasonable chance that a wounded man would survive if evacuated to hospital at an early stage. It also introduced the concept of an whole nation at war and for the first time since the English civil War British men being compelled to serve in the army.

[Stoppage Drill]

Reference to "first world war" in Indianapolis Star, 20 Sep 1914, article by Ernst Hackl.

"There is no doubt that the course and character of the feared “European war”...will become the first world war in the full sense of the word."

[BottsGreys]

...and fighting taking place on all continents except N. America.

North America could be included if you take into account the U-Boat operations in American waters in 1918, including the 21 July shelling of Cape Cod by

U-156.

Chris

[Steven Broomfield]

I've often wondered how many angels one could get on the head of a pin. I'm starting to count them.

[SteveMarsdin]

To add some context: in some French parliamentary reports from 1915/1916 it is still referred to as the French-German war (translated). I have some volumes of a series published by Caxton after the war entitled "The History of the Great European War". I think there are two separate issues: when was the term First World War used (to describe the Great War) and when was it commonly used.

[Kitchener's Bugle]

The "actual" date is much earlier than you would logically think.

In fact the Second World War did not have anything to do with it.

[Stoppage Drill]

I've often wondered how many angels one could get on the head of a pin. I'm starting to count them.

Should keep you occupied whilst you're waiting for the next series of "The Village" to moan about.

[Steven Broomfield]

I didn't moan about it. I liked it. Do keep up.

[MikB]

Just because a few seers and prophets used the term (with or without caps) because they wanted their audiences to consider that there might be others, doesn't mean the terminology passed into common parlance. Most called it the Great War, at least until it was apparent that the 1939 affair was going to be of similar proportions.

There's a WW1 15" naval shell outside (IIRC) the post office in Widecombe, Dartmoor, with a plaque that says the shell was presented to the village in 1920 for collecting sphagnum moss for treating wounds in the First World War. I'd wondered how they knew it was going to be the First World War in 1920. Turns out the plaque is a post WW2 replacement when the original disappeared as the fasteners rusted off.

Regards,

MikB

[bill24chev]

In some ways WW1 was the first part of the Great 20th Century War with WW2 being part two and the cold war part 3, and the cold war did have some warm bits and hot spots such as Vietnam, Malaya and Central America.

I wonder if future historians will see the 20th century as one War in a similer way to the Hundred Years War of the 14th & 15th century

There is already a series often shown on "history" channels "The Century of Warfare"

[John_Hartley]

I wonder if future historians will see the 20th century as one War in a similer way to the Hundred Years War of the 14th & 15th century

Possibly. Along the lines that some historians (seemingly mainly American) see both world wars as a continuing "European Civil War". I would understand the views without agreeing with the conclusions.

[Steven Broomfield]

I suppose we need to fast forward a few hundred years to see how the Great War/First World War/European Civil War/Little Unpleasantness is really remembered. I suspect at present we are still too near to be completely objective; only when it is as remote as Agincourt or Flodden will we truly be able to assess the reality - and I doubt any of us will be around to see it.

I would also suggest that disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing: creates a debate to make people think. I suspect much of what I've learned about Waterloo is seen through one set of eyes, with a different set giving me a different view.I've been doing a bit of reading about the Crimea lately and I find it interesting that 160 years after there is still room for disagreement. Maybe that's healthy - if we all subscribed to an ortodox line the subject would become extremely dull.

[Seany]

To return to post #1 and Stephen Fry - what was the answer on QI?

[Stoppage Drill]

I suppose we need to fast forward a few hundred years to see how the Great War/First World War/European Civil War/Little Unpleasantness is really remembered. I suspect at present we are still too near to be completely objective; only when it is as remote as Agincourt or Flodden will we truly be able to assess the reality -

Yes, we can all agree on Agincourt . . . . . . but hark, quote from an October 2008 newspaper report . .

"The battle - part of the Hundred Years War - has become a byword for English heroism in the face of insurmountable odds.

But nearly 600 years later, historians will tell a conference at the Medieval History Museum in Agincourt that the stories that Henry's troops were hugely outnumbered are a lie.

The museum's director, distinguished French historian Christophe Gilliot, said: 'There's been a distortion of the facts and this conference will attempt to set the record straight. "

Tiens ! Retour à la planche à dessin !

[Kitchener's Bugle]

To return to post #1 and Stephen Fry - what was the answer on QI?

OK here is the answer according to QI.....

In 1920 Lt Col Charles à Court Repington published two books called The First World War 1914 -18 Volume 1 and the First World War 1914-18 Volume 2.

Repington was a prolific and respected writer and news paper Columist who had met (in 1918) with a Major Johnson from Harvard University. As historians they where trying to coin a phrase that desctibed the war in its entirety - They came up with "The War", "The German War" and then the "World War" before mutually agreeing on the First World War.

Here are some details on Repington:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_%C3%A0_Court_Repington

And here is the actual QI Episode. If you do not wish to watch the full episode then fast forward to 38 mins.

However there is a very good example of a Vickers Mk 1 from 1917 earlier on and an explanation of how they kept it cool during prolonged bursts!!!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqU5BsQS-0Y

[Stoppage Drill]

Before the war Repington had been required to resign his commission after an affaire de coeur with a married lady. He had given a written undertaking never to see the lady again, and was abiding by it. However, a sh*t of a major named Henry Wilson (yes,him) treacherously "bubbled" him to the Army Council.

[Andrew Upton]

However there is a very good example of a Vickers Mk 1 from 1917 earlier on and an explanation of how they kept it cool during prolonged bursts!!!.

The referenced segment on Vickers contains a number of mistakes or misinterpretations of the facts (eg the hole in Russian guns wasn't to enable men to urinate directly into the jacket, but was a feature copied from Finnish guns and allowed snow to be packed directly into the jacket, the heat from the barrel melting it and turning it into water as would be normally used), and shows just how fallible even QI can be...

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Andrew, that does seem a bit more Civilised, thankfully!

[Scalyback]

The referenced segment on Vickers contains a number of mistakes or misinterpretations of the facts (eg the hole in Russian guns wasn't to enable men to urinate directly into the jacket, but was a feature copied from Finnish guns and allowed snow to be packed directly into the jacket, the heat from the barrel melting it and turning it into water as would be normally used), and shows just how fallible even QI can be...

The QI show has it's own forum. The researchers on there are connected with said show. Inform them of the mistakes. They are happy about more information and do require experts to "probe" for future shows.

[Moonraker]

I think that there's at least one other thread on this topic, but this is the only one I could find. Wikipedia observes (with suspect grammar):

"The [seven Years] war has been described as the first "world war",^[2] although this label was also given to various earlier conflicts such as the Eighty Years' War, the Thirty Years' War, the War of the Spanish Succession and the War of the Austrian Succession, and to later conflicts such as the Napoleonics have termed the Second Hundred Years' War, in order to describe the almost continuous level of world-wide conflict during the entire 18th century, compared to the more famous and compact struggle of the 14th century.^[3]"

^Moonraker

[Ron Clifton]

OK here is the answer according to QI.....

In 1920 Lt Col Charles à Court Repington published two books called The First World War 1914 -18 Volume 1 and the First World War 1914-18 Volume 2.

What was Volume 1 called before Volume 2 was published?

Ron

[Kitchener's Bugle]

No idea Ron perhaps he had the intent to do two volumes all along..................or maybe it was like one of those greatest hits albums that you so often see ....