'Pull through' question

[Chasemuseum]

And the Bren pull through came fitted with a gauze as standard. Also by feeding the pull-through through the chamber of the SMLE, with the 4by in the middle loop, if it jammed when feeding from the chamber into the barrel, it was easy to use a screwdriver though the end loop to lever the pull through out of the rifle, without breaking the pull through or damaging the rifle.

As a school cadet in Oz, we had to draw our rifles from the armoury at lunch, once a week and clean them, leaving them with a light film of oil in the barrel. We had about 250 rifles and 6 Bren guns. The teachers had nothing to do with this, just the duty NCOs and a CUO (senior students). The idea of having these weapons in a school now is unbelievable. In the 50s we also had Vickers and 3-inch mortars, but that was before my time.

I still remember firing the Bren at the range, they were great fun and much more reliable than the M60s that I used in a latter career.

Ross T

[bill24chev]

I remember being with the RSM of an RE regiment when we happened to come upon a group of soldiers practicing with the LMG (a bren but chambered for 7.62Nato)He severely berated one soldier for getting the drills wrong. I knew that the said soldier had only arrived in the unit having transferred in to the RE only the day before from the Infantry.

When we moved on I very politely told the RSM that the soldier being Infantry trained may have never been taught the LMG, Infantry being taught the GPMG. To my surprise he did not realise that.

Although then a shinney bottomed Sergeant I had had a short previous service career and had been taught GPMG then and the LMG in my (second) Army career.

The upshot of this incident that every soldier had to carry out more regular weapon training which at least got me out of the office occasionally.

[Old Tom]

A lot of nostelgia here. As a cadet (JTC) I recall the process of 'boiling out' after firing. As a junior soldier a year or to later I have no recollection of 'boiling out'. I wonder why? As a cadet the rifle was a SMLE as a soldier a No 4. Was there a difference in ammunition or was 'boiling out' some sort of tradition persisting in superior corps?

Old Tom

[MikB]

A lot of nostelgia here. As a cadet (JTC) I recall the process of 'boiling out' after firing. As a junior soldier a year or to later I have no recollection of 'boiling out'. I wonder why? As a cadet the rifle was a SMLE as a soldier a No 4. Was there a difference in ammunition or was 'boiling out' some sort of tradition persisting in superior corps?

Old Tom

It could be that the corrosive chlorate primers were being replaced by non-corrosive - lead styphnate IIRC - and the boiling-out process was no longer required. In my cadet days it was referred to as a process of the recent past. I don't know exactly when the non-corrosive primer became universal, but I'm sure that supersession of boiling-out would be to do with the ammunition rather than the rifle.

Regards

MikB

[TonyE]

The corrosive primer stayed as the standard until the end of the life oif the .303 inch round. Non corrosive primers only became the norm with the introduction of the 7.62x51mm NATO round.

Regards

TonyE

[MikB]

Boiling-out certainly wasn't part of standard after-shoot cleaning when I was a cadet - the rifles were rodded through with what the RSM described as Rangoon Oil, but which looked and smelt exactly like the Young's 303 I was using on my guns at home. I know this latter contained a neutralising agent for corrosive primer residue, but I thought it required mixture with water to an engineering-suds-like emulsion to be effective, and the stuff the RSM used looked neat.

If R/|\G 57 303 was still corrosive, was boiling-out stricken from procedures because the No.4s were no longer required to last indefinitely? Or was the RSM using his own discretion?

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

RG 57 is corrosively primed. I think the habit of boiling out had more or less faded by the 1960s as the solvents like Young's .303 took over. I shot service rifle at Bisley throughout that time and never used the old boiling method. Some people liked to make an aqueous solution of Young's and use that first to get rid of the salts.

In the cadets we only used the issue military oil which I think was OX52. That seemed to keep the shooting team's rifles in very good condition.

Regards

TonyE

[MikB]

RG 57 is corrosively primed. I think the habit of boiling out had more or less faded by the 1960s as the solvents like Young's .303 took over. I shot service rifle at Bisley throughout that time and never used the old boiling method. Some people liked to make an aqueous solution of Young's and use that first to get rid of the salts.

In the cadets we only used the issue military oil which I think was OX52. That seemed to keep the shooting team's rifles in very good condition.

Regards

TonyE

Thanks for that. I'd thought that non-corrosive priming had been introduced in the last few years of the 303's service life and that this was the reason boiling-out had stopped.

I never knew whether the corrosive nature of priming had been exaggerated. When I bought my SMLE in the 90s, the first few rounds I fired were South African Mk.VII from 1943, and I cleaned it scrupulously with Young's and water - just in case - and never found any visible corrosion.

Regards,

MikB

[Chasemuseum]

From an OZ perspective, our military .303 ammunition was always corrosive primed and we used to boil out with the little funnels if possible.

For hunting and target shooting away from the green machine, there was Belgian made .303 ammunition on the commercial market that was not corrosive primed. It had the nickel coloured primers and was filled with a loose powder not cordite sticks. It was lovely shooting ammunition. It grouped better than the military ammo.

Moving from school cadets to the CMF (Territorials), it was all 7.62NATO, all non corrosive, with the L1A1, L2A1, L4 Bren, GPMG M60 and 9mm in the F1 and Browning Hi-power. As infantry we trained on both the GPMG and the LMG, although most work was with the GPMG. Each of the 7.62 weapons had its own specific cleaning kit.

Because every second soldier back then had been a school cadet, everybody used to roll their SLR pull throughs the same way we used to roll the .303 pull through.

Regards

Ross T

[Chasemuseum]

I should also add that the 7.62mm Bren, M60 and section cleaning kits all used screw together steel cleaning rods. These rods were absolutely savage on the barrels and we were encouraged to use the SLR pull-through rather than the cleaning rods. Usually someone in the section would carry a plastic bottle of bore solvent to clean a barrel if it was badly fouled with copper residues in the rifling grooves. It was also perfect for cleaning the carbon residues off the SLR piston and from the groove in the gas plug.

Regards

RT

[Thunderbox]

I don't think its been necessary to boil rifles out since the 1930s - all of the military references I've seen for the practice date from around WW1. Was there a difference in primer composition between the 1890s and the 1930s?

Boiling out may not be necessary to remove primer residue any more, but its an excellent way to deep clean rifle barrels. I routinely boil out all rifles i get in (RFD), and also any that have had a fair bit of range use. Its surprising what modern solvents miss; I use Hoppes, PH, and Butch's Bore Shine, as well as foam bore cleaners. However, even when these cleaning agents show "clean patches", a boiling out and brush always gives up another round of black sludge!

Boiling out gave me a nice surprise with one of my very few auction "lucky finds":

I'd won a very dirty Long Lee LE1* for a low price, because it looked worthless. The bore was clean but looked as shot-out as they normally are these days. I used rods and Hoppes to clean the bore, but nothing much improved - it was shiny but had very rounded rifling. I then boiled the rifle out. To my surprise here was a dull "plop" as a large brown mass dropped into the water jug I was using to recycle the water. When I looked into the bore now, I was astonished to see that it was now sharp and shiny. It turned out the rifle was virtually unfired, and had had a layer of oil or cosmoline in the bore that was so hard that it had simply acquired a polish when patches were pushed through - giving it the appearance of rounded lands and a worn lead. The boiling water had evidently melted this layer, and caused it to slide out...

[4thGordons]

I'd won a very dirty Long Lee LE1* for a low price, because it looked worthless. The bore was clean but looked as shot-out as they normally are these days. I used rods and Hoppes to clean the bore, but nothing much improved - it was shiny but had very rounded rifling. I then boiled the rifle out. To my surprise here was a dull "plop" as a large brown mass dropped into the water jug I was using to recycle the water. When I looked into the bore now, I was astonished to see that it was now sharp and shiny. It turned out the rifle was virtually unfired, and had had a layer of oil or cosmoline in the bore that was so hard that it had simply acquired a polish when patches were pushed through - giving it the appearance of rounded lands and a worn lead. The boiling water had evidently melted this layer, and caused it to slide out...

"Lucky-B__________" as my granddad used to say.... off to boil a kettle!

10 years ago I shot a lot of POF .303 ammunition and Hoppes and various other commercial cleaners would take an age to come clean -- but would eventually. When possible I always poured boiling water through and then cleaned as normal - sped things up immensely. And BTW despite the bad rap it gets I shot hundreds and hundreds (probably thousands actually) of rounds of POF surplus and had just one 32rnd box of click-bangs. It also appeared to shoot as accurately as any milsurp I have run accross.

Chris

[Old Tom]

Interesting comments, many thanks. I should have said my cadet shooting days were 1949/50.

Old Tom

[Charpoi Warrior]

Thanks for this gentlemen, I've never handled a rifle so knew none of this.

[lakeslad]

oh man this brings back good memories, i was in the cadets and was lucky enough to fire the .303 at halton range lancaster, always remeber everyone telling me to put my beret in my jumper on the shoulder due to the recoil...well jump forward a few years and i went in the regulars, based at woolwhich we went to the ranges somewhere near the m25 i think can not remember the name just now, anyway here we fired the bren in .303 and 7.62, if you havnt fired it i can tell you i would be glad i was not german in the war man thoses rounds were powerfull, cleaning with the pull through was always a chore but it had to be done!!

sorry to digress but then we went on to train and fire the SLR and Sten SMG before during training the SA80 came in and we converted to them, i subseqently went on to take the LSW L86 into iraq in 91. but they all had to be cleaned!!!

[auchonvillerssomme]

Woolwich Garrison often used Purfleet Ranges, certainly in the mid 80's, always bleak and wet.

[lakeslad]

thats it Purfleet,, arr the memories of "rifle above head" GO....

[auchonvillerssomme]

We must have had the same instructors, I could never really understand how running with a rifle above my head or 'arms outstretched' or even being forced to crawl through steaming cowpats in pouring rain improved my marksmanship.