Tank on Tank action near Wambaix 8th Oct 1918

[clk]

Hi Arnaud,

 

Some Tank Corps specialists may know. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. Without some other clue, even just a first name or initial, there are several possibilities for the surname of Clark/Clarke, so I don't think that I can help. You can download (on a free of charge basis) the officer index for men of that name from the National Archives - from here, which might give you a shortlist of candidates.

 

Is he mentioned elsewhere in the unit war diary, where his first name/initial might be shown?

 

Good luck with your research, and the very best wishes for your impending commemoration. 

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[Colin W Taylor]

Gents,

 

Apologies- the links in Post 9 were erroneous - the link for Clarke's MC is here - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31480/supplement/9722 - I searched back through the gazette for his citation but got the wrong link.  Frank Clarke - Tank Corps may not narrow it down much though.  Possibly this chap - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1172423 - whose MIC is here: - MIC.

 

Regards

 

Colin  

[Arnaud Gabet]

Thank you very much Colin,

 

Now, we know all the leaders of tanks who participated to the Battle of Niergnies/forenville (8 october 1918)

Thank you to all the people of this forum for  your precious help 

Regards

 

Arnaud

[bierast]

I have some notes here I made on this engagement from the German side a few years ago. It is highly significant to my specialised subject as it was the only combat that Saxon tank personnel took part in during the war! Sources include Major Volckheim's Die Deutschen Kampfwagen im Weltkriege (the quasi-official history of the German tank arm, written by one of its officers). I'll be able to add to this next week when I get back from Flanders (I'm doing a living history event at the museum in Zonnebeke).

 

This map from Major Volckheim's book shows the paths taken by the German tanks involved. The infantry regiment indicated was actually RIR 65 of 208. Inf. Div.

 

 

On 24^th September 1918 OHL ordered the O/C German Tank Detachments (Kommandeur der Kampfwagen-Abteilungen) Hptm. Friedrich Bornschlegel (a Bavarian career technical officer, already with the Kgl. Bayer. Luft- und Kraftfahr-Bataillon in peacetime), to prepare all available detachments (either at the German tank HQ near Charleroi or engaged in demonstrations / exercises at various training grounds behind the front) for deployment to the Armies on the Western Front for use in “aggressive defence” (offensiven Abwehr). At 11pm on 27^th September, OHL ordered Hptm. Bornschlegel to send the majority of the available units to Heeresgruppe Kpr. Rupprecht / 17. Armee – namely the A7V-equipped schwere Kampfwagen-Abteilung 1 and the “booty tank” schwere Kampfwagen-Abteilungen 11, 13 (Bavarian), 15 and 16. Bornschlegel himself was attached to the staff of 17. Armee to supervise operations.

 

Of these units,  Abt. 11, 15 and 16 were unloaded at Rieux on 28^th September – these were the units which subsequently fought at Niergnies-Serainvillers on 8^th October (Abt. 1 and 13 fought at Iwuy on 11^th October).  Abt. 11 was the original “booty tank” unit, and had taken part in the first German tank attack on March 21^st. Abt. 15 and 16 were both newly formed, and this would be their first and only action.

 

All three units had an establishment of five refurbished Mk IV tanks (salvaged from the Cambrai battlefield) – two “male” and three “female”. By this point in the war, all of the “males” were now armed with two of the same 5.7cm Maxim-Nordenfeldt guns as the A7V (in the same design of mounting, originally developed for the prototype-only A7VU tank), plus a total of three (probably rechambered) Lewis Guns. Due to an official requirement that all tanks were to be armed with an anti-tank weapon, “female” tanks were now armed with a 13mm Mauser T-Gewehr (the first A/T rifle) in the cab MG mount, and two Lewis Guns in each sponson. According to Volckheim, some 24 T-Gewehr rounds were fired by the German tanks during this engagement. As for the MGs, the crews of the “booty tanks” greatly envied the A7V crews their much more durable armour-plated MG08 Maxims. All of the German tanks in this battle suffered from battle damage to their Lewis Guns.

 

Two of the German tank commanders at Niergnies-Serainvillers were Saxon officers, who had been transferred to Prussian tank units. The Saxon and Württemberg war ministries had each agreed to form a single “booty tank” detachment in August, but neither unit ever received any actual tanks. Although the Württemberg unit continued to train until made redundant by the Versailles prohibition of German tanks in 1919, the Saxon unit was dissolved before the Armistice. Some of its personnel were transferred to Prussian tank units in the Autumn. An archive researcher on the Landships Forum implied that many Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften were transferred, in addition to the officers. It is easy to imagine that those who had eagerly volunteered for the tanks would become bored and frustrated with their situation, and would seize the opportunity to get some actual combat experience. It is suggested that this loss of personnel greatly reduced the strength of the Saxon Detachment, possibly leading to its early dissolution.

 

Leutnant Paul's tank was a 'Male'  - 219, number “I” of Abteilung 15. As such, his machine was responsible for most of the damage to the British tanks in the engagement at Niergnies.  It was also – contrary to some British sources - the one which was destroyed by a direct hit in the fuel tank, inflicted by an abandoned 77mm field cannon (cleverly used by a British Tank crew). Paul and one other man escaped. Nevertheless in the afternoon he commanded the unit's remaining reserve tank in a second attack. This was another 'Male' – 218, number “II” of Abteilung 15. The Lieutenant was cited for bravery for his actions on this day – undoubtedly, he had achived more that day than any other German tank commander.

 

Leutnant Hoffmann's tank (number unknown) was the only one from Abteilung 16 which returned from the battle.

 

The other destroyed tank from reinforced Abteilung 15 was the 'Female' of an unfortunate Prussian Leutnant called Semmler, from Abteilung 11. The entire crew were missing, presumed dead.

 

In his 1937 book "Achtung-Panzer" Heinz Guderian describes two tank battles. On page 187 of the Arms and Armour edition (1995) he writes as follows:

 

3. THE TANK ACTION AT NIERGNIES-SERANVILLERS

"On 8 October 1918 the British attacked between Cambrai and Saint-Quentin with the support of sixteen battalions of tanks, of which 12^th Battalion went into action south of Cambrai, where it was distributed among four of the assaulting corps. Initially the attack went well, but in the morning mist it ran into a counter-attack by German tanks - namely ten captured British Mark IVs, which were advancing under cover of a smokescreen. The leading British tank commander took the approaching black shapes for friendly machines, as was only natural, but he was disabused when he came under fire at fifty metres. The British were able to hit the leading German tank, but four of their own spearhead tanks were rapidly put out of action, and it seems that some at least of the crews were unaware of the enemy presence as they hastened towards their doom. A British tank officer managed to get hold of a gun which had been captured from German troops, and he was able to put a further German tank out of action, leaving the Germans with two machine-gun tanks. One of the surviving machines was disabled shortly afterwards, while the other had to make off to escape the attentions of a British machine.

 

North of Seranvillers, meanwhile, two British gun tanks encountered two German machine-gun tanks and, inevitably, soon knocked them out. In this way the British were able beat off the German counter-attack. Their own infantry had fled before the German tanks, but now they came on again and seized their objectives."

Edited 27 September , 2018 by bierast

[Arnaud Gabet]

Very Interesting ! Thaky you Bierast !

[Arnaud Gabet]

I search photos of 

L 8 Lukoie III

L 9 Lightning III

L 6 Lily

L 7 Looter

L 11 Liason

L 12 Lochiel

L 16 Lion

L 54

L 45

L 49

 

And from German camp :

Abteilung 15 : Wagen 218, wagen 219, wagen 134, wagen 138

Thank you for advance.

[clk]

Hi Arnaud.

 

I wonder if the Bovington Tank Museum  might be able to help? 

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 28 September , 2018 by clk

[bierast]

There is a very detailed account of the operation in Rainer Strasheim's Beute-Tanks: British Tanks in German Service (volume 2). I can scan this for you if you wish Arnaud. Please PM me if interested.

 

The book (which I would strongly recommend together with volume 1 and the same author's book on the A7V, as the best available work on the subject; see link below) also has a couple of relevant photos of tanks from Abt. 11 in the right area in October. Unfortunately known photo coverage of Abt. 15 and 16 is very scant, and I can't supply pictures of the specific vehicles in question.

 

https://www.tankograd.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/World-War-One.htm

[Arnaud Gabet]

Thank you very much Bierast, yes ii am very interested in your scan. My adress e-mail is arnaud.gabet@wanadoo.fr

Edited 3 October , 2018 by Arnaud Gabet

[bierast]

4 hours ago, Arnaud Gabet said:

Thank you very much Bierast, yes ii am very interested in your scan.

 

No problem - I've just emailed you.

[delta]

Just picked up this thread.

There is a likely link between Norman Carmichael, whose MIC is shown above, and Sjt Norman Carmichael of 21st KRRC who is quoted by Trevor Pidgeon in both Tanks at Flers and Flers and Gueudecourt as witnessing a tank on 15 Sep 1916 at Tea Support trench.  The tank is reported as "lumbering past on my left, belching forth yellow fames from her Vickers' gun and making for the gap where Flers Road cut through the enemy trench" .

The only slight issue is that none of the tanks operating down that road around Zero hours were fitted with Vickers guns.  

 

 

Edited 13 October , 2022 by delta

[bierast]

On 27/09/2018 at 01:05, bierast said:

The other destroyed tank from reinforced Abteilung 15 was the 'Female' of an unfortunate Prussian Leutnant called Semmler, from Abteilung 11. The entire crew were missing, presumed dead.

Correction: in fact Leutnant der Reserve Robert Semmler (6th Oct. 1893 - 8th Oct. 1918) was also a Saxon officer! He first appears in the Saxon Verlustliste issued 26th April 1916, as a Vizefeldwebel with 4. Kompagnie / Kgl. Sächs. 5. Infanterie-Regiment Kronprinz Nr. 104 (IR 104). This regiment belonged to 40. Inf. Div. / XIX. Armeekorps, and held the Entenschnabel / Birdcage at this time. According to the Verlustliste Semmler had been 'lightly wounded again' (erneut leicht verwundet), probably around March or early April.

He must have been commissioned at some point later in the year, as he is named as Leutnant der Reserve Semmler among the regiment's many wounded from the fighting for the Butte de Warlencourt in October 1916 (source: Wolff, Das Königlich Sächsische Infanterie-Regiment Kronprinz 104, vol. I p.304). By 1st January 1917 he was definitely in the field with the regiment and serving with its Infanterie-Pionierkompagnie (ad-hoc company of infantrymen who worked as semi-skilled labour under direction from the actual Pioniere). In the aftermath of the Messines disaster (table of appointments for 3rd July 1917) he was with the 3. Kompagnie. This was evidently just a temporary arrangement, as he was back with the Infanterie-Pionierkompagnie by November. This time he was the only officer and hence commander of the company, which had probably not regained the numerical strength it had enjoyed in January. In March 1918 it was reduced drastically into the so-called 'Artilleriezug' - a "Material- und Schanzzug" ('materiel and sapping platoon') of 56 all ranks, detailed to support the regiment's escort artillery in the spring offensives.

Perhaps Semmler felt wasted in this role. In any case, the regimental history tells us that on 31st May 1918 he was transferred to the Prussian Kraftfahrer-Ersatz-Abteilung in Berlin-Schöneberg for training as a Kampfwagenführer (tank commander). This eventually led him to the Mk IV tank unit which the Verlustlisten describe as 'Panzerwagen-Abteilung 11', and his death on 8th October 1918 near Niergnies, when his female Mk IV was hit by artillery fire. He was reported as missing (together with eight other men from his unit) in the Prussian Verlustliste of 7th December 1918, and (unlike the other eight men) confirmed dead in that of 18th December.

Edited 2 April , 2023 by bierast