tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Begging indulgence again please Gents. I'm scrambling through my unidentified '2nd search box' and have thus far been remarkably lucky, but... Not a clear image I'm afraid and the cap badges are pretty indistinct thanks to the light background of the cap band. Most similar collar badge I can find is the Lancashire Hussars Yeomanry cap badge (if that makes sense) but I'm pretty sure from other references that their collar badge was a 'Rose' akin to the DLOY. Ideas please. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 He's not Yeomanry, he's St John Ambulance. Collar badge and Shoulder title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Really !!! My ineptitude knows no bounds. A salutary lesson in tunnel vision for me. Thanks and congratulations on your 3000th posting. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Blimey, I didn't even notice. At least it was constructive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Blimey, I didn't even notice. At least it was constructive! Certainly was - now perhaps I need to indulge a little licence with the 'mod's' for the next. A Newtown and LLanidloes photographer, which places it in Montgomery. I doubt Montgomery Yeomanry as I can't make out a dragon in the centre of the helmet plate. What I do see is a Victorian Crown to the top. Khedive's Star gives past service at around 1884-6 but other medal not discernible to me. The strap is elaborate and sometimes I fancy I can see three pips but this may be a chimera. If with boots and sword and swagger he turns out to be a milkman I'll question not after my above effort. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Are you sure this is Yeomanry? I think he is ASC, and most likely ASC Volunteers. He is wearing a Blue Cloth Helmet which has a standard pattern blue cloth helmet plate - neither of which were worn by the Yeomanry. The Yeomanry were usually designated as Hussars, Lancers or Dragoons and by this date wore headdress that reflected this. Unusually this has a leather chinstrap (depite the heavy chinstrap bosses) rather than the usual chain strap. The other distinguishing feature is the ball top to the blue-cloth helmet which suggests (to me at least) one of the support arms (Infantry would usually have a spike). The Blue cloth helmet was worn by the RA, RE ASC, RAMC etc (including the Militia and the Volunteers)...this would not be RA or RE as the helmet plate would be based on the Royal Coat of Arms, which suggests (to me at least) it is the ASC...the centre of the helmet plate would be a stylised ASC cypher.....I can post an example tomorrow when I get to my collection. The medals might be a red herring as he could well be an ex regular having transferred into the ASC. The regular ASC helmet plate was gilt with silver centre device, the Volunteers (and later the Territorial Force) had the metals of the helmet plate reversed - so the helmet plate and the centre device was silvered. I have examples of both from the post 1901 period (King's Crown). Note the picture is pre 1901 as it has Queen Victoria's Crown. .... Kipling and King will provide more detail....mine is not to hand. MG Edit. The pattern of the helmet plate (and if I am right about the ASC) dates it between 1888 and 1901 Edit 2: Post 45 on page 2 of the attached linked thread shows the two ASC helmet plates (post 1901 examples) ....lowest row, second from left and second from lowest row, extreme right. You should be able to make out the ASC cypher. I will post more detailed ones tomorrow..... http://1914-1918.inv...ic=188212&st=25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Agree A.S.C., distinguishable by the double white stripes on the trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 He is also unlikely to be Yeomanry as the two medals he wears are the 1882-89 Egypt Campaign Medal (with two clasps) and the Khedive's Star - illustrative example below. Yeomanry would not have got this. There were several combinations of bars and variations on the Khedive's Star, so difficult to narrow down with a unit such as the ASC - although strictly in this period ( the Egypt Campaign of the 1880s)they would have been the Commissariat & Transport Corps. Sorry the pic is so large - it proved resistant to shrinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Many thanks Martin. My (continuing) series of photographs are all from a backlog that, over the years, I have failed to identify. The backlog of backlogs are going to be Yeomanry / Cavalry as they are not one of my primary interests save the London Yeomanry where I have family connections. ASC were one of my first thoughts but I attributed the sword as of mounted rather than officer pertinence - the pips I see, now and again can't be attributed with any certainty. So... ball, cypher and VC (the one thing I did spot) suggest Pre 1901 ASC officer. I'd be grateful to agree that. Slight quibble in the gut though. Many thanks Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 QVC or KC are the industry standard nomenclature. ...VC is I believe something entirely diferent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Phil, Graham, Martin. Pukka stuff, for which many thanks. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2013 QVC or KC are the industry standard nomenclature. ...VC is I believe something entirely diferent... Absolutely - how much humble pie must I scoff tonight (better than the fishcakes Mrs S has on offer ) Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Many thanks Martin. My (continuing) series of photographs are all from a backlog that, over the years, I have failed to identify. The backlog of backlogs are going to be Yeomanry / Cavalry as they are not one of my primary interests save the London Yeomanry where I have family connections. ASC were one of my first thoughts but I attributed the sword as of mounted rather than officer pertinence - the pips I see, now and again can't be attributed with any certainty. So... ball, cypher and VC (the one thing I did spot) suggest Pre 1901 ASC officer. I'd be grateful to agree that. Slight quibble in the gut though. Many thanks Tim The type of helmet plate is an Officers' helmet plate (OR's were much flatter with very low relief) and the scrambled egg on his sleeve would also indicate he is an Officer.....who were all mounted for these dates...hence the riding boots and sword etc. On dates the earliest this can be is 1888 (formation of the ASC) [Edit: according to K&K Army Order 3 of 1889] so in theory this photo can be narrowed down to a three year window of 1889-1901. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 The type of helmet plate is an Officers' helmet plate (OR's were much flatter with very low relief) and the scrambled egg on his sleeve would also indicate he is an Officer.....who were all mounted for these dates...hence the riding boots and sword etc. On dates the earliest this can be is 1888 (formation of the ASC) A nice picture of an ASC officer wearing full dress review order. I do recommend you join the victorian wars forum for photos of this vintage. There are many members who frequent both. Although the images show the later crown they do illustrate the cypher to advantage. The officer shown in your photo wears the cuff rank and pouch belt of pre-1902 pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Out of interest, I note Phil's photo of the medals shows the Egypt medal with bar "El Teb - Tamaai". A small piece on those battles can be found here: http://www.horsepowermuseum.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 A nice picture of an ASC officer wearing full dress review order. I do recommend you join the victorian wars forum for photos of this vintage. There are many members who frequent both. Although the images show the later crown they do illustrate the cypher to advantage. The officer shown in your photo wears the cuff rank and pouch belt of pre-1902 pattern. Thanks as always, Frogsmile. Lovely crisp images. Reference Victorian forums you're probably right but for the fact I'm trying to rein in my interests rather than expand them. Some years ago I had the rather grand idea of collecting the WW1 insignia (detailed in authentic period postcards and photographs only) of every regiment and battalion thereof, in the British Army. Liking a challenge I also set myself the task of including a photograph of a named member of each unit also. Now this is a hobby, akin to building a matchstick St Paul's or whatever. My real WW1 interests are the politics and reporting of the War, British Army in India and the London territorials. As with many other members I'm also particularly interested in the regiments of my grandparents - PA SLI, 25th Londons and RE. Top that with the fact that I've the notion of developing a website on the dissolution of the British Empire and it should become obvious I've spread myself too thin. The weakest point of my weakest limb is both cavalry and yeomanry uniforms (cap badges I can manage). When I get stuck with identification the GWF is always my first port of call and I've only failed here on one or two occasions (RE reduced brim caps being the most annoying). I'm afraid that when I upload a piece of Victoriana it's an expression of me being woefully wrong rather than a specific interest in said item. I knew the ASC officer was pre-war but was hoping he may be a Yeoman representing one of the regiments I've yet to fill - my own collection has its own variable rules chief amongst which is 'if I can't find a WW1 example an earlier one will do as a stop-gap'. The 'Collectors' is an odd beast, as John Fowles so ably demonstrated in his sixties novel of the same name. Hope this explains to those generous enough to help me with my enquiries to explain why I'm not quite the complete dunderhead I at times may appear. I've another 'Yeoman' to post tonight. arrrrgh. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 Possibly one for Martin's assistance (I've seen your other threads on 1st County of London's) but all please feel free... I've a series of four photos where it was suggested by the vendor that there was a connection with the London Yeomanry. I cannot confirm this through insignia: frustratingly the only images I can pick up are collar badges and here there is no clarity. Small enough for eight pointed star of the 1st CoL MDoCH but no where near good enough for a firm indication and my gut feeling is contra if any . The photographs have been taken at a 1909 camp; where I've no idea save a decent lake and wooded parkland. Via a comment on the reverse of one card (and after hours spent today exploring various census entries) I can make a case for one of the troopers therein being named Workman. I've traced an MiC for Laurence Montague Workman who served in the MDoCH during WW1 and crucially, having been born in 1885, could have been a Territorial trooper in 1909. His service number was 3681 prior to 1917 renumbering as 260427. I've tried all the Hussar, London, Middx etc searches one needs to undertake for this particular regiment with no other obvious candidate given the parameters I have to work within. I'll post photos in as much detail as I can. Question is, anything to count M DoC Hussars as in or out ? Tim Thanks as always. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 March , 2013 Share Posted 29 March , 2013 As promised...regular and volunteer versions post 1901....MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 MDofCH Photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 and more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 and . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 As promised...regular and volunteer versions post 1901....MG Many thanks Martin...er, any chance of helping with tonight's homework ? (#17) I'll be off line for a few hours as I oblige the family but will be back around 19:00hrs. Regards Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 29 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2013 Finally ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 March , 2013 Share Posted 29 March , 2013 Edit: My only observations are that the two riders nearest on the first photo post both have a dark stripe (double stripe?) down their overall trouser legs. The colour looks darker in hue to the colour of the trousers. This will eliminate many of the 50+ Yeomanry Regiments. The only other thing I note is the docked tails - which might be regulation but I recall in the dark recesses of my mind reading about commanding officers with differing views on trace clipping, docking, hogging of manes etc, so that might provide a clue. If this is the Middlesex Hussars it can not be after 1900 when the overall stripe colour changed from red (sic) to yellow The only caveat is that at a stretch, the red striped overalls were kept for day-to-day use and the yellow stripe was only worn in review order, but I think this would be extremely unlikely. Page 123 of the Regimental History: "The Regiment sent a detachment to the Coronation of His Majesty King George V in 1910 (sic)*. Lord Kitchener was gazetted Honorary Colonel of the regiment on Jul 5......On April 24 [presumably 1911]....Colonel Duncan received the old Duke of Cambridge's Hussars uniform, including full dress but with red [scarlet] instead of green busby bag. Red stripes had been worn on pantaloons and overalls by the men up to 1900 but after the South African War double yellow stripes were worn." * actually 1911. In 1872 when the Middlesex Yeomanry became hussars they adopted a green tunic and overalls with a double red (sic) stripe. I have no references for any subsequent uniform changes since that date, so assuming the core colour scheme remained, this would be consistent. The caveat is that by the 1911 Coronation the overalls had changed to dark blue with yellow stripes [source:Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Force: 1794-1914 10: The Yeomanry Force at the 1911 Coronation by R J Smith and R G Harris]. You might want to find a copy of the Middlesex Yeo dress regs to establish the date of change. If in 1909 the Middlesex Hussars were still wearing dark green with red double stripes this eliminate dozens (most?) of the other Yeomanry Regiments as candidates. Note that the East Kent Mounted Rifles had similar colour scheme at the time. Also the Middlesex Yeomanry Band was mounted on greys and there is a grey in the photo. Not conclusive but equally not exclusive. Not sure if you already know this but the regimental motto on the drum horse banner (also dark green with scarlet backing to the central design) Pro Aris et Focis was corrupted to "For 'ares and foxes" by the Yeomen. Definitely territorial Yeomanry given the slackness of their dress....flat caps, etc. Cant see that happening in the regular line cavalry. Note many of the Middlesex Hussars were ex Household Cavalry men according to the Regimental History - so standrads semed to have slackened somewhat during the transition from regulars to territorials. The harnesses might also help bracket or confirm the date. There are a few horse experts in the membership who I am sure will appear soon.... 1907 - annual training at Moulsford-on Thames 1908 - annual training was at Streatley-on-Thames 1909 - annual training at Pond farm, Devizes 1910 - annual training at Pond farm, Devizes 1911 - annual training at Westdown North 1912 - annual training at Crowborough 1913 - no annual training. Took part in Army manoeuvres 1914 - training with 20th Hussars at Colchester Related to the Middlesex Yeomanry theme, I have a copy of the "Middlesex Yeomanry Magazine - Souvenir Number 1914-1919" which is very rare. If you are interested I will photograph the (72) pages and post a link for you. MG P.S. If you have any photos of the Derbyshire Yeomanry I would be very interested to see.....or South Notts Hussars or Sherwood Rngers Yeomanry. PPS. Here are the overall (no pun intended) colour schemes for the Yeomanry at the 1911 Coronation - Overall's colour followed by stripe colour (single stripe unless otherwise specified) [source: Smith and Harris]. It should at least help eliminate a few..... Ayrshire...................Khaki, scarlet Bedfordshire............Blue, white Berkshire.................Blue, scarlet R Bucks...................Dark blue, double scarlet Cheshire..................Blue, double white Denbighshire...........Blue, double scarlet Derbyshire...............Blue, double scarlet R 1st Devon............Blue, double white R North Devon.........Blue, double white QO Dorset...............Blue, double white Essex.......................Green, double scarlet Fife & Forfar............Blue, double scarlet Glamorgan...............Blue, double white R Gloucestershire...Blue, double yellow Hampshire...............Blue, double white Hertfordshire...........dark Blue, double scarlet QO West Kent.........Blue, double white R East Kent.............Rifle Green, black mohair with scarlet welt down centre Lanarkshire.............Dark blue, scarlet Lancashire H...........Blue, double white Lancaster's Own......Blue, yellow Leicestershire..........Blue, double scarlet Lincolnshire.............Green, double white Surrey......................Drab, double scarlet Sussex.....................Blue, yellow Roughriders.............French grey, double purple (really) Middlesex H.............Blue, double yellow...........but note comments above. Westminster D.........Blue, yellow....... note their purple plumes were not colourfast in the rain during the dress rehearsal.That must have been a sight. Sharpshooters.........Dark Blue/green, double yellow Lothian & Border......Blue, double scarlet Montgomeryshire.....Blue, scarlet Lovat's Scouts.........Khaki, blue piping Norfolk.....................Blue, yellow Northampton............Blue, double cornflower blue (really) Northumberland H...Blue, double white South Notts H..........Blue, double yellow Oxfordshire H..........Blue, mantua (I think...not strictly specified) Pembrokeshire........Blue, white Scottish Horse.........Atholl grey, double yellow Shropshire..............Blue, scarlet N Somerset.............Blue, double white W Somerset............Blue, double white Staffordshire............Blue, double scarlet Suffolk.....................Green, Warwickshire...........Blue, double white West'ld & Cum'ld.... Blue double white R Wiltshire..............Blue, double white Worcestershire.......Blue, double scarlet Yorkshire D............Blue, double white Yorkshire H.............Blue, white East Riding.............Dark Blue, French grey N Irish Horse............Dark blue, white S Irish Horse...........Green, double scarlet (special issue for Coronation) Edit: Which, if the riders are wearing dark overalls with a double scarlet stripe and eliminating yellow and white stripes, leaves the following possible units.... R Bucks...................Dark blue, double scarlet Denbighshire...........Blue, double scarlet Derbyshire...............Blue, double scarlet Essex.......................Green, double scarlet Fife & Forfar............Blue, double scarlet Hertfordshire...........Dark Blue, double scarlet Leicestershire..........Blue, double scarlet Lothian & Border......Blue, double scarlet Staffordshire............Blue, double scarlet Worcestershire........Blue, double scarlet Which again can be narrowed down from the collar badges....eg. I think it is definitely not Leicestershire Yeomanry as their collar badge was the distinctive arms of Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg (very similar to the 11th Hussars (PAO) for example.....and so on.....I will cross ref against my Yeomanry badges and revert with thoughts based on the above assumptions. Edit: From the shortlist above, my best guesstimate is Royal Bucks Hussars.....simply because the collar badges of all the others are too distinctive to be the collar badge of the Sgt/SSgt? with the riding crop looking at the camera.It is a guess with a low degree of certainty and assumes blue overalls with double scarlet stripes. If I am wrong on the double scarlet and it is indeed single scarlet of the three additional options - Berkshire, Montgomery, Shropshire, only Shropshire would get a look-in from the collar badge shape.....so, in conclusion - first choice would be R Bucks Hussars, second choice would be Shropshire Yeomanry. MG Edit: Some Yeomanry units also wore a crown above corporal's stripes. There is an example in one of your photos of a Cpl (with a flat cap) with plain stripes. I am not sure if any of the units on the short-list had crowned Cpl's stripes but I feel certain that a cloth badge expert will enter stage right very soon. 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