Crossed rifles - marksman

[geraint]

I'm aware that the crossed rifles badge on the lower left arm usually denoted a 'marksman'. What was the difference in shooting skills, of a First class and a Second class marksman?

Also how many of each would be found in a territorial battalion as compared to a regular 1914 battalion?

Also; would there be an official musketry definition of a 'sniper'?

Thanks

[Muerrisch]

"Sniper" was not an acknowledged qualification or appointment when the war began. There was not a specialist rifle, nor a telescope. I believe that, as a reaction to highly skilled German marksmen, a sniping ethos and organisation grew up, eventually officially sanctioned, with official training and equipment. Several books on the subject exist. The nucleus of the battalion organisation appears to have been the Scout section, to also include Observation and Intelligence duties.

"Musketry" ability was assessed annually, and soldiers placed into one of: Marksman, 1st class shot, 2nd class shot, and 3rd class shot.

Only the highest grade was badged. Further badges were available for best shot of company or band, best shot of battalion [divided SNCO, and below] and also all the SNCO of best shooting company. Cavalry and RE also shot for the same badges. RA, RAMC and the varios other corps and departments received a lesser training.

[geraint]

Thanks Grumpy. What was the target difference between First, Second and Third class? Was it based on the 15 shot per minute threshold?

[Muerrisch]

Thanks Grumpy. What was the target difference between First, Second and Third class? Was it based on the 15 shot per minute threshold?

I'll try to have a look at Musketry Regs 1909 tomorrow if nobody beats me to it.

[4thGordons]

Several books on the subject exist.

The best of which, from the British perspective is Hesketh Pritchard: Sniping in France downloadable free on this link.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Scores:

it is VERY complicated but:

130 points and above = marksman

105-129 =first class shot

50 -104 = second class

all others 3rd class.

an element of pay depended on proficiency, and also options when going to the Reserve.

[geraint]

Thanks Chris, Excellent link.Thanks Grumpy.

[squirrel]

15 aimed rounds in a minute was part of the annual musketry qualification. I can't quote the source as I am unable to find it but I have read somewhere reasonably reliable that in 1914 just under 70% of the Regular Infantry and just over 70% of the Regular Cavalry were first class shots.

[Muerrisch]

and see

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=165419&st=0&forc

for the statistics

[geraint]

Good link that! Dave Lostinspace had some excellent info regarding the numbers per battalion. Thanks squrrel.

[Wardog]

Can someone tell me how far above the cuff the Marksman badge was to be worn? Is there a link online to positioning of other Great War period military badges? Regards, Paul.

[chrislock]

Mine back in the mid 60's was worn in the center of my Army Cadet battledress sleeve cuff. I was very proud of it until to my horror I realised I had lost it when it fell off due to my crap sowing. Well I was only 13 for heavens sake!

[green_acorn]

Scores:

it is VERY complicated but:

130 points and above = marksman

105-129 =first class shot

50 -104 = second class

all others 3rd class.

an element of pay depended on proficiency, and also options when going to the Reserve.

Grumpy,

I have forgotten the actual shoots terminology, but would it not have required the soldier to pass the annual Application Shoot and if then of sufficient standard to go onto the Applied Marksman Shoot from which the scores would then apply?

Cheers,

Hendo

[Andrew Upton]

Can someone tell me how far above the cuff the Marksman badge was to be worn? Is there a link online to positioning of other Great War period military badges? Regards, Paul.

Per Clothing regulations 1914 App XVII para 5.----- On Service Dress the lower edge of a "skill at arms" badge will be 6 1/2 inches from the bottom of the sleeve (this is W/O other badges in which case other rules apply).

[Wardog]

Thanks Andrew- can you give me a link for that thread? If I remember correctly that was the same for use on RAF No.1 and No.2 dress in the early 1980's. Thanks for your help. Regards, Paul.

[johnboy]

When researching an infantry man would his markmanship be noted on his records?

[Andrew Upton]

Thanks Andrew- can you give me a link for that thread? If I remember correctly that was the same for use on RAF No.1 and No.2 dress in the early 1980's. Thanks for your help. Regards, Paul.

It's this one, one I started back in 2007 to get an answer for the same question :

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=75839&hl="on%20service%20dress%20"#entry693495

[Peter Zieminski]

Andrew - Does your PM Inbox need weeding? I am trying to send you one and get the automatically generated reply to say you can't receive any more? Will try an email.

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew - Does your PM Inbox need weeding? I am trying to send you one and get the automatically generated reply to say you can't receive any more? Will try an email.

Replied to you email.

[Joe Sweeney]

Here is some info on the actual course:

Awarded to all men for perfomance in part III. Table B Appendix I of the Musketry Regulations.

Classification (Infantry, Cavalry etc.--not including RA, ASC etc., which had different standards):

Exersice 18.

Grouping-- 2nd Class Elementary (Bulls Eye---100yrds--5rds---Lying

Exersice 19.

Snapshooting----Figure No.3 (Silhoutte)---200yrds---5rds---Lying taking cover as in 7. Bayonet fixed Exposure 4 seconds for each shot.

Exersice 20.

Slow---2nd Class Figure---400yrds--5rds--Lying taking cover as in 14.

Exersice 21.

Slow---2nd Class Figure---300yrds--5rds--Kneeling taking cover as in 16.

Exersice 22.

Rapid---2nd Class Figure---300yrds--15rds--Lying, Rifle to be loaded and 4 rds in the Magazine before target appears. Loading from pouch or bandolier by 5rds afterwards. One minute allowed.

Exersice 23.

Slow---1st Class Figure---500yrds--5rds---Lying.

Exersice 24.

rapid---1st Class Figure---500yrds--5rds---Lying. 30 seconds allowed

Exersice 25.

Slow---1st Class Figure---600yrds--5rds---Lying. taking cover as in 7.

Any reference to a number refers back to a previous exercise.

A soldier would have had to complete the entire Table B "parts I II and III" with enough points to classify as Marksman.

Any soldier who classified as marksman was eligable to wear the crossed rifles.

This link will take you to additional information

marksman thread

Hope this is of interest.

Joe Sweeney

[adamedward054]

That was really interesting,thanks Adam

[Birdog56]

On 22/03/2013 at 13:34, geraint said:

I'm aware that the crossed rifles badge on the lower left arm usually denoted a 'marksman'. What was the difference in shooting skills, of a First class and a Second class marksman?

Also how many of each would be found in a territorial battalion as compared to a regular 1914 battalion?

Also; would there be an official musketry definition of a 'sniper'?

Thanks

 

[Birdog56]

Just now, Birdog56 said:

 

I've recently learnt that my grandfather in WW1 was in territorial force and awarded 1st class shot badge to be worn on left arm. Would anyone have an image that I could see of one please? 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Birdog56 said:

I've recently learnt that my grandfather in WW1 was in territorial force and awarded 1st class shot badge to be worn on left arm. Would anyone have an image that I could see of one please? 

The first class shot was commonly referred to as a ‘marksman’.  There were two badges for field uniforms, one in drab khaki worsted and the other in a removable form and made of gilding metal.  The latter was more commonly used on tropical uniforms so as to ease frequent laundering.

There were also full dress versions of the badge in a variety of colours of woven thread, plus bullion wire for senior NCOs.

It was quite an old badge in terms of origin and was introduced when soldiers were issued with muskets having rifled barrels that required individual firers to aim carefully from the late 1850s onward.

 

Edited 24 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Birdog56]

Thank-you Frogsmile so much for rapid response, I would like to see if I can purchase one to add to the collection of things that I keep in a Princess Mary tin, things that relate to him. He served in India and then Mesoptamia,  does that give an idea as to which he would be wearing?