6th Shropshires Posted 20 March , 2013 Share Posted 20 March , 2013 Hi All Does anyone have any idea where most of the dead from the area Bazentin-Longueval-Montauban wpould likely to be buried -Looking for unknowns from that area (90% of the 7th K.S.L.I. men killed on the 14th July are on the Thiepval Memorial). Thanks Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 20 March , 2013 Admin Share Posted 20 March , 2013 Hi Annette A quick bit of spreadsheet crunching CWGC data suggests Caterpillar Valley and Quarry would be good places to start. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 20 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2013 Hi Glen Cheers, these two do look like the must likely, I was going to visit Quarry anyway has there are two known 7th K.S.L.I. men, so will have a look around Caterpillar Valley to see if their any unknows with K.S.L.I. badges. Thanks Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterhogg Posted 20 March , 2013 Share Posted 20 March , 2013 Bernafay Wood cemetery may also be worth a look given it's a location, though I have not checked the full roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 20 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2013 Hi Connor Yes Bernafay is a possibity, although Caterpillar is most likey, most of the 7th K.S.L.I. were shot down in front of the uncut wire of the Longueval -Bazentin line. There are a couple in Flatiron. Battlefield burials can be a bit odd at time, 6th K.S.L.I. men killed near the site of Guards Cemetery are buried in Serra No 2. I will be running out of light by the time I have walked from Deville Wood cemetery out towards Morval, then over to Bull's Road, then down to Longueval (I will be doing a lot of zig zaging over fields and nosing around all K.S.L.I. site on the way). So I was hoping to narrow down which cemetery to look in for any possible K.S.L.I. graves without names (a year or so ago I sent C.W.G.C. a few emails asking if they could give me grave refs for all K.S.L.I. headstones that have no ID but they never replied, so will be walking around any cemeteries which have a chance of any such graves). Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickpreston@nasuwt.net Posted 21 March , 2013 Share Posted 21 March , 2013 This topic is most interesting, the attack on the 14th July was the first sucess after 1 July disaster.Besides the 7th K. L. S. I. the 13th Battalion Kings Liverpool Regiment.was also involved.They attacked up hill to take Bazentin Le Grande , a fortified farm. During the attack my wifes Great Uncle Charles Reynard was killed and is remembered on Theival Memorial however we wondered where the dead fron this regiment were likely to be burried. With reference to Flatiron and Bernafay Wood we looked but did not apparently see any king Liverpool. Has any body any ideas of how to narrow down where the dead are likely to be burried. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 21 March , 2013 Share Posted 21 March , 2013 There's no real mystery with this kind of thing these days: pre-computers it used to be almost impossible. Use the search capabilities of the "Debt of Honour" database at the CWGC website. You can set a date, regiment and unit and it will give you all of them. By doing that it shows - total of 151 deaths to 7th KSLI on the date - of which all but 8 have no known graves and are commemorated at Thiepval - 2 are buried in Dive Copse; 4 in Flatiron Copse and 2 in Quarry Cemetery, Montauban. For the 13th King's - total of 132 deaths on the date - of which all but 10 have no known graves and are commemorated at Thiepval - 5 are buried in Dive Copse; 2 in Flatiron Copse and one each in Caterpillar Valley, Carnoy and La Neuville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 21 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2013 Hi Chris What I am looking for are those men, who they knew were K.S.L.I. but could not give a name to, I have never noticed these sort of burials recorded on C.W.G.C. registers (on-line). I tried asking the C.W.G.C. if they could give me a list of all such burials but they never replied, so I will do it myself but I do not have time to look at very cemetery, so just hoping someone would have knowledge of battlefield clearances to help narrow down where to look. For example of what I am looking for in Hooge Cemetery there is a stone with a unknown Captain of the K.S.L.I., there are only two men he could be, if the C.W.G.C. will play ball I intend find where his body was found and then I can say which Captain he was, a much harder job to do with other ranks I know but I could at least say this grave belongs to a man of the blank Battalion. Its easy to find those with names in cemeteries, if only the registers gave details of very grave evan if a unknown. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 21 March , 2013 Share Posted 21 March , 2013 (edited) ... I tried asking the C.W.G.C. if they could give me a list of all such burials but they never replied, ... Annette - I dont think there is any easy answer to this in the CWGC records - the original burial returns for likely cemeteries would have to be trawled - not a very quick job (and dependent upon the commission allowing access to the records). To be honest, it would probably be faster to actually walk the likely cemeteries and see what is to be found. If the light is ok and the stone engraving reasonably clear then you should be able to view three or four rows at a time. Whether anything would come of this which the commission would accept as "evidence" is another thing entirely. Tom edit - 1 x spelling ! Edited 22 March , 2013 by Tom Tulloch-Marshall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickpreston@nasuwt.net Posted 22 March , 2013 Share Posted 22 March , 2013 Thanks Chris I will try using CWGC site in that way Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 26 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 26 March , 2013 Annette - I dont think there is any easy answer to this in the CWGC records - the original burial returns for likely cemeteries would have to be trawled - not a very quick job (and dependent upon the commission allowing access to the records). To be honest, it would probably be faster to actually walk the likely cemeteries and see what is to be found. If the light is ok and the stone engraving reasonably clear then you should be able to view three or four rows at a time. Whether anything would come of this which the commission would accept as "evidence" is another thing entirely. Tom edit - 1 x spelling ! Hi Tom Thanks for advise. I would not try and get the CWGC to accept it as evidence, it would just be for my own records, to start with at any rate Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 An interesting challenge, Annette. As Tom says, your only practical route is to ask CWGC what they can tell you. I presume they must nowadays have a database of the inscriptions applied to the unknown soldiers' graves... but then again, perhaps not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 You could use Geoff's Engine, but not sure if that would help any more than CWGC. With Geoff's you can search by battalion, and Cemetery Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 ... I presume they must nowadays have a database of the inscriptions applied to the unknown soldiers' graves... but then again, perhaps not. Chris - the last time I discussed this specific point with them (a few months ago) their advice was that any work relating to the wording on Unknown headstones was checked against the original cemetery burial registers. There seemed to be no intention to try to electronically database this information. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 29 March , 2013 Share Posted 29 March , 2013 Annette I have made registers of 180 cemeteries on the Somme and included on them all partial identifications. If you want to know where all unidentified KSLI headstones are then PM an email address and I will send a spreadsheet. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 29 March , 2013 Share Posted 29 March , 2013 Annette Further to this there are no unidentified KSLI in Caterpillar Valley,Quarry or Bernafay Wood. There are 2 in Flatiron Copse, 5 in Delville Wood and 5 in London Ext. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 29 March , 2013 Share Posted 29 March , 2013 Richard A quick look for King's Liverpool in this area shows Quarry none, Flatiron 5, Bernafay Wood 9, Caterpillar Valley 15, Delville Wood 17 and London Ext 30. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 1 April , 2013 Share Posted 1 April , 2013 ... included on them all partial identifications. ... Peter - does your Somme database include any unknown headstones to any of the following ? > British West Indies Regiment Highland Cyclist Battalion Honorable Artillery Company - specifying Artillery or Infantry Kent Cyclist Battalion Liverpool Irish Northern Cyclist Battalion Royal Jersey Artillery or Garrison Battalion Royal Artillery - specifying Siege Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 2 April , 2013 Share Posted 2 April , 2013 Tom You can always be trusted to come up with unusual requests. This time my 22,823 row database has come up with 1 hit. There is an Unknown Northern Cyclist Battalion man in Serre Road 2 Plot 13 Row B grave 7. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 3 April , 2013 Share Posted 3 April , 2013 Peter – I was aware of the Northern Cyclist Battalion burial at Serre, but did only spot it last year. I had hoped that some of the others I was looking for on the Somme may have come to light during your more methodical searches, but as they haven’t I’ll have to presume that they don’t exist. The one in that list which has “intrigued” me for some time is that there seems to be no “unknown” headstone to the Liverpool Irish. There is the obvious badging issue there, and I expect that a lot of the unknown burials from the battalion have headstones to the King’s, but it still surprises me that I have never seen an unknown headstone to the Irish battalion. Does anybody know of one, anywhere ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 Tom There are 354 of The King's Liverpool of which 18 note the battalion. Examples are of 6, 10, 17, 19 and 20th Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 6th Kings were the Liverpool Rifles. 10th Kings were the Liverpool Scottish. 17th to 20th were the Liverpool Pals. Each had cap badges different from the standard KLR, and so should have them on the headstones. But then.....none there for the 8th battn., the Liverpool Irish. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 Tom There are 354 of The King's Liverpool of which 18 note the battalion. Examples are of 6, 10, 17, 19 and 20th Peter Peter - I'd appreciate a heads-up on where on the Somme the 19th and 20th Bn men are. As for the 8th (Irish), as well as wondering why I have never seen "unknown" headstones to the battalion, I also wonder why they never had their own badges ? Does anybody know why that was, or where there is a headstone to an unknown soldier of the battalion ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 5 April , 2013 Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Tom All 5 19th battalion are in Guillemont Road V. O. 5 and VII. L. 2 to 5. One 20th is in Guillimont Road X. F. 3 and the other is in Ovillers XIV. N. 5. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 5 April , 2013 Share Posted 5 April , 2013 Peter - thanks; I'll stop by at Guillemont and Ovillers later this month. Meanwhile - if anybody does come across a headstone to an unknown 8th (Irish) Bn KLR man then please let me know. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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