one last "bullet" I.D.

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

Hello everyone,

I have one last bullet I'd like help with identifying for the museum I'm doing a placement for, any help would be grealy appreciated!

it's been made into a trench art item, with 'LIEGE' engraved into it with patterns.

base of casing is 22mm accross including the rim, and alltogether it is roughly 140mm tall

regards,

Haydn

[Torrey McLean]

Hello, Haydn - It's a German 13mm anti-tank round manufactured in June 1918. Regards, Torrey

[Stoppage Drill]

Looks like a T-Gewehr round.

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

Hello, Haydn - It's a German 13mm anti-tank round manufactured in June 1918. Regards, Torrey

thank you verry much! cheers, really appreciate the quick reply

[TonyE]

..and just to add the last bits of detail, made by Polte, Magdeburg and "T67" is "T-Patrone" with 67% copper in the case brass.

Regards

TonyE

[Old Tom]

Does not look as if it was fired, wonder if the propellant is still there in spite of the decoration.

Old Tom

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

..and just to add the last bits of detail, made by Polte, Magdeburg and "T67" is "T-Patrone" with 67% copper in the case brass.

Regards

TonyE

cheers for that addition Tony!

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

Does not look as if it was fired, wonder if the propellant is still there in spite of the decoration.

Old Tom

the primer is unstruck but I would assume the propelant had been removed by the engraver? after all if he was messing about with tapping it with a hammer I would want to remove the projectile and empty the contents 'just in case'

[4thGordons]

Presumably weighing the round might give you an indication of whether or not the case if full?

Chris

[Stoppage Drill]

the primer is unstruck but I would assume the propelant had been removed by the engraver? after all if he was messing about with tapping it with a hammer I would want to remove the projectile and empty the contents 'just in case'

So long as you don't whack the primer it would be virtually impossible to ignite propellant with a hammer blow. Even if you did, the effects of an unchambered cartridge igniting are not particularly dangerous.

[MikB]

So long as you don't whack the primer it would be virtually impossible to ignite propellant with a hammer blow. Even if you did, the effects of an unchambered cartridge igniting are not particularly dangerous.

Well, it might be if your face was a few inches away as you carefully guided your graving tool !

Regards,

MikB

[Stoppage Drill]

I agree with that - your hand might slip and drive the tool up your snotter.

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

tomorrow is my last day at my placement, shaking it makes no clue as to their being contents but obviously this does not mean there isn't anything, do you think it is worth mentioning to the museum to get checked out or left 'as is'?

also aren't T-Gewehr rounds uncommon items?

regards,

Haydn

[Stoppage Drill]

Uncommon, yes, and has now been included in the Home Office list of "obsolete calibres."

But be warned - the obsolete calibre list allows you to possess an original firearm chambered for one of the calibres as an antique under section 58(2) of the 1968 Fireams Act. No need for a Firearm certificate if you ain't shooting it.

You may NOT possess the ammunition off ticket though. And if it is designated as AP then it comes under the provisions of section 5 (1A)(e) of the Act which would require the separate authority of the Home Office as well as a Firearm Certificate.

If this example is still charged with propellant I would hazard a guess that the weakening caused by the engraving might cause the case to rupture, if fired.

[TonyE]

tomorrow is my last day at my placement, shaking it makes no clue as to their being contents but obviously this does not mean there isn't anything, do you think it is worth mentioning to the museum to get checked out or left 'as is'?

also aren't T-Gewehr rounds uncommon items?

regards,

Haydn

T-Gewehr rounds are actually far more common than many people think. You will almost certainly find one at most gun/cartridge/militaria fairs.

The problem is, as Stoppage Drill points out, they are armour piercing and thus Section 5, even if inerted. I think I have four in my "spare" stock at the moment, but they can only go to someone else with a Section 5 authority.

I will weigh an inert example for you this morning and hopefully the museum has a set of decent scales so you can compare yours. Another quick check is that generally inerted rounds have loose bullets.

Regards

TonyE

Edit: Sudden brainwave. I looked up the weights in the British 1918 intelligence analysis.

Complete loaded round - 1,780 grains =115.34 grams

Bullet - 797 grains = 51.64 grams

Case inc. cap - 783 grains = 50.74 grams

Propellant - 200 grains = 12.96 grams

If your example is inert with no propellant it should weigh about 1,580 grains = 102.38 grams. The weight may differ by a gram or two as the weight of the AP core in the bullet is known to vary slightly

TonyE

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

T-Gewehr rounds are actually far more common than many people think. You will almost certainly find one at most gun/cartridge/militaria fairs.

The problem is, as Stoppage Drill points out, they are armour piercing and thus Section 5, even if inerted. I think I have four in my "spare" stock at the moment, but they can only go to someone else with a Section 5 authority.

I will weigh an inert example for you this morning and hopefully the museum has a set of decent scales so you can compare yours.

Regards

TonyE

thank you Tony,

I cannot remember any details so I may be wrong but aren't museums exempt from some certain rulings? having a case for the social history behind an item etc.? I know in paper work that the museum has 5 .303's that were in their card box that had been brought back from dunkirk and were cumbrian made, these are on display and the paper work in the archives state they had been sent away to be made inert, so it may be another case that if you weigh an 'empty' round and the one in collection here comes as having 'extra propelant weight' it could be sent away for treatment, when you get back to be on weight I'll inform the curator and let her decide the ruling behind it.

can you give me honest advice on what I should advise?

regards,

Haydn

[Stoppage Drill]

thank you Tony,

I cannot remember any details so I may be wrong but aren't museums exempt from some certain rulings? having a case for the social history behind an item etc.? I know in paper work that the museum has 5 .303's that were in their card box that had been brought back from dunkirk and were cumbrian made, these are on display and the paper work in the archives state they had been sent away to be made inert, so it may be another case that if you weigh an 'empty' round and the one in collection here comes as having 'extra propelant weight' it could be sent away for treatment, when you get back to be on weight I'll inform the curator and let her decide the ruling behind it.

can you give me honest advice on what I should advise?

regards,

Haydn

Museums are not exempt from any provisions of the Firearms Acts, but they may be issued with a Museum Licence by the Home Office as opposed to having to hold a firearm Certificate or Registration as a Firearms Dealer (RFD) - the details are in the Schedule to the 1988 Firearms (Amendment) Act.

Ammunition falling under sections 1 and 5 of the amended 1968 Act need some form of authority to possess - it's not just the guns.

[TonyE]

Haydn - See my post above, I have edited it to include the weights.

First check whether the Museum has a Licence as described by Stoppage Drill. If not it may be possible to find someone in Cumbria with Section 5 authority who would be prepared to remove the steel core for you.

I would do it myself but London is a bit far away!

Regards

TonyE

[Stoppage Drill]

Haydn - See my post above, I have edited it to include the weights.

First check whether the Museum has a Licence as described by Stoppage Drill. If not it may be possible to find someone in Cumbria with Section 5 authority who would be prepared to remove the steel core for you.

I would do it myself but London is a bit far away!

Regards

TonyE

Tony, I think that simply removing the propellant would suffice. If you are thinking that prohibited status includes the projectile in addition to the complete round, that only refers to expanding ammunition, not AP. (It all stems from European Council Directive 91/477/EEC of 18 June 1991, which was then enhanced and incorporated into UK law by virtue of section 3 of the Firearms Acts (Amendment) Regulations 1992.) In all of this, references are only made to expanding rounds/projectiles, so an incomplete AP round (say, by removing propellant) would not be considered to be "ammunition." Would you agree with that reasoning ?

[TonyE]

I don't think that is the case, as unless there is something I am not aware of, Section 5.1(A) (e) states:

(e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;

This is then qualified by S.5 (1A)(g):

(g)anything which is designed to be projected as a missile from any weapon and is designed to be, or has been, incorporated in—

(i)any ammunition falling within any of the preceding paragraphs; or

(ii)any ammunition which would fall within any of those paragraphs but for its being specified in subsection (1) of this section.]

That to me seems like a catch-all that says "anything", i.e. an AP bullet in an inert round, is covered because it was designed to be used in a prohibited item under S.5 (1A)(e).

I am not a lawyer, but I have always erred on the safe side by using this interpretation. In fact I specifically asked to have S.5(1A)(g) authority on my Section 5 authority to cover me for the loose projectiles in my collection.

I would be interested to know of any precedent or case law that shines any light on this somewhat grey area.

Regards

TonyE

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

I have wrote the following to leave as a note to our head curator, will thi sum the advice up enough? from the accesion code the item was donated in 1985 and has been in storage since.

"WHHMG 1985.490

13mm ww1 German anti-tank round.

primer in base is unstruck which indicates it as unfired and there fore maybe live!

Action:

Get an accurate set of scales and weigh it, a completely loaded round will weigh 115.34 grams. A round that has had the internal propellant removed will weight 102.38 grams give or take a gram or two due to varying weights of AP cores.

This calibre is included in the home office list of obsolete calibres, this means the orginal firearm that would have been chambered to fire this round can be owned legally as an 'antique' under section 58 (2) of the 1968 firearms act. (can be owned live legally without a cirtificate)

however!

You may not posses the ammunition off ticket. AS it is designed as AP (armour penetrating) then it comes under the provision of section 5 (1A) (e) of the act that would require the seperate authority of the home office as well as a firearms cirtificate.

If a museum has been issued with an "museum license", a "section 5 firearms cirtificate" or a cirtificate or "registration as a firearms dealer" (RFD), (Details in the schedule to the 1988 firearms (amendments) act.) then the museum can own it legally no problem.

If none of the above are are possesed you will have to contact someone with a section 5 authority who would be prepared the steel core of the round for you to legally own as a non AP catagory."

I have been informed by a colleague that the museum does indeed own a firearms cirtificate, but she can't remember to which level this goes to, but Sue our curator will know, so I will pass this information on, cheers again! for the ID and warning, it is very greatly appreciated and will hopefully be included in a ww1 display/exhibition next year.

warm regards,

Haydn

[Thunderbox]

I think its probably fortunate that the Police have no-one like Tony doing inspection tours of museums and collections.....

There must be hundreds of inert AP ammo natures on display around the country, let alone whats in amateur collections.

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

I don't think that is the case, as unless there is something I am not aware of, Section 5.1(A) (e) states:

(e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;

This is then qualified by S.5 (1A)(g):

(g)anything which is designed to be projected as a missile from any weapon and is designed to be, or has been, incorporated in—

(i)any ammunition falling within any of the preceding paragraphs; or

(ii)any ammunition which would fall within any of those paragraphs but for its being specified in subsection (1) of this section.]

That to me seems like a catch-all that says "anything", i.e. an AP bullet in an inert round, is covered because it was designed to be used in a prohibited item under S.5 (1A)(e).

I am not a lawyer, but I have always erred on the safe side by using this interpretation. In fact I specifically asked to have S.5(1A)(g) authority on my Section 5 authority to cover me for the loose projectiles in my collection.

I would be interested to know of any precedent or case law that shines any light on this somewhat grey area.

Regards

TonyE

just reading that, I own a ww2 projectile AP head from a 2 lb'r shell (solid lump of steel) the wording of that act makes it seem this would fall under it's remit too then?

[TonyE]

No, you are OK. What is so odd is that the Act does not cover AP shot, since to be subject to S.5 (1A)(e) the projectile must have a jacket. A 2 Pr. AP shot for example is quite legal.

Regards

TonyE

[wulfrik-the-wanderer]

No, you are OK. What is so odd is that the Act does not cover AP shot, since to be subject to S.5 (1A)(e) the projectile must have a jacket. A 2 Pr. AP shot for example is quite legal.

Regards

TonyE

curious, why is the jacket a clinching factor?

regards,

Haydn