German Field Hospitals in Westrozebeke (Flanders)

[AOK4]

The memorial was on Westrozebeke I (the dead were moved to Westrozebeke II after WWI).

[cwbuff]

If I understand this thread correctly, Westrozebeke I became full and was not used after 1916. In 1917 Westrozebeke II was opened and used. After WWI, the dead from Westrozebeke I were moved to Westrozebeke II. In the 1950s (year ?), Westrozebeke II dead were moved to Langemark. Do I have this correct?

[AOK4]

That is indeed in big lines the history behind it.

[cwbuff]

Do you know the date when the dead from Westrozebeke II were moved to Langemark? Do any photographs exist of the reinterment process?

[AOK4]

Do you know the date when the dead from Westrozebeke II were moved to Langemark? Do any photographs exist of the reinterment process?

That was around 1955-1956. I have never seen pictures of the reburial works. The works were strictly forbidden area for anybody not involved.

Some Belgian workers were helping, but only digging until they reached the dead. At that point German officials took over (there's a description about the reburial works in my book about Menen Wald). I know that papers were filled out for every body that was found (what bones were found, what extra things were found etc.), but the papers are nowadays not accessible (they should be at the Volksbund, but they don't allow anybody to see the papers, even relatives).

Jan

[cwbuff]

You would think that after 100 years they would release that information. Perhaps some day.

[AOK4]

Unfortunately, the Volksbund is in a very difficult financial situation and it is a private organisation.

I think a cooperation with a company like ancestry (like the military archives in Munich have done) would probably be interesting for both sides.

[laughton]

I am looking for details on a Canadian that was exhumed from there and reburied in the "Divisional Collecting Post Cemetery" located at WESTROOSEBEKE. I am assuming that is just a spelling variation made by the 1925 burial party?

20.C.12.c.1.3

GPS Coordinates would thus be: 51.0705, 2.9301

It is listed on this COG-BR: (2 British and I Canadian)

I was taking a long shot that someone might have a cemetery list and I could track down my Canadian and then compare it to the ICRC POW list.

If it is the same place it is on the McMaster Map here: http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A70067/-/collection

The IWM DVD trench map series seems to stop at DIXMUDE which is too far south.

[AOK4]

The correct map coordinates should be 20.V.12.c.1.3. That is the location of the communal cemetery of Westrozebeke, which was used by the Germans until May 1915.

[laughton]

Thank you kindly! So the Burial Return Officer made a slight error on the COG-BR form, very strange.

New GPS coordinates of 20.V.12.c.1.3 are 50.9304, 3.0138 (closer on Google Earth might be 50°55'51.62"N 3° 0'43.55"E)

The information that it was only used until May 1915 was very helpful, as that means a Canadian lost in 2nd Ypres, not Passchendaele or a Canadian with the RFC.

[Aurel Sercu]

Richard,

I'm not sure I understand.

I believe that, as Jan (AOK4) wrote Westrozebeke Communal Cemetery indeed is 20.V.12.c.1.3, and not 20.C.12.c.1.3. (By the way, odd coincidence : the latter is a German Cemetery too, but not in Westrozebeke. It is the large German Cemetery Vladslo (Praatbos), some 16 km NNW of Westrozebeke).

On the map in your recent posting you marked a coloured square at 20.V.12.c.5.5. (or a little more precise at 55.55. or so). Do you mean you believe that this could be a cemetery too ?

Aurel

[AOK4]

Richard,

I'm not sure I understand.

On the map in your recent posting you marked a coloured square at 20.V.12.c.5.5. (or a little more precise at 55.55. or so). Do you mean you believe that this could be a cemetery too ?

Aurel

Aurel,

He just marked the square details: "12" and "c".

Jan

[Aurel Sercu]

Jan,

Yes, of course ! Sorry for the (silly) misunderstanding ... :-(

Aurel

[laughton]

Okay, so now I am confused ?

The CWGC form COG-BR says:

WESTROOSBEKE C. C.

20.C.12.C.1.3

I was not sure if it was C.C. for "Communal Cemetery" or G.C. for "German Cemetery".

Is the CWGC form them correct as it was first written and where I showed it in my first post?

Richard

[AOK4]

Okay, so now I am confused ?

The CWGC form COG-BR says:

WESTROOSBEKE C. C.

20.C.12.C.1.3

I was not sure if it was C.C. for "Communal Cemetery" or G.C. for "German Cemetery".

Is the CWGC form them correct as it was first written and where I showed it in my first post?

Richard

Richard,

Westrozebeke CC is 20V.12.c.1.3. There should have been 8 British soldiers buried there originally (not all of them may have been found after the war as the area was badly destroyed). There were as far as I know no British graves in Praatbos (at 20C.12.c.1.3).

Divisional Collecting Post Cemetery contains two special memorials for graves that couldn't be found on Westrozebeke CC.

Jan

[laughton]

So if I understand you correctly, the form that I presented on the concentration of graves is INCORRECT as they had the wrong coordinates. If true, that might explain a lot of other areas in cemeteries across Belgium and France as that means they "looked up" the cemetery coordinates AFTER the exhumations, they did not determine them at the site DURING the exhumations (i.e. by looking at the trench maps and marking where the bodies were located). I might mention how that might have influenced Topic XXXXX but we can not go there!

I should therefore now be looking for a Canadian that was either captured, recovered or just "cleaned up" by the Germans and buried at 20.V.12.c.1.3 and not 20.C.12.C.1.3. That is a big difference as the C designation would probably mean he was RFC. RAF or a POW. If he was a V then he could have just been taken behind the lines and buried.

Are there any records of the men that were in these cemeteries? If I get some kind of lead then I can scour the ICRC archives looking for Canadians that were POWs in specific German POW camps or otherwise held by the Germans. First I would need a SHORT LIST of possible missing Canadians and then search them by name to see if they were on the ICRC listing with a PA file.

If he was in the RAF/RFC that part would not be that difficult as he is one on the Arras Flying Services Memorial that we have already researched. If he was ARMY that is a big difference!

Would there be a list of German POW camps in that area?

Just to be clear, I am not asking anyone to do this work, I am just trying to find out if it would ever be possible to come to a resolution on the case of this lost Canadian that was in GERMAN GRAVE 29 at that cemetery.

The kindness of your assistance is most appreciated.

Richard

[AOK4]

As far as I know, the original registers of Westrozebeke Communal Cemetery have not survived. However, these were used by the British after the war. if the man hasn't been identified, it's because there was no more information available at that time either.

The amount of Canadian losses at that point (2nd Ypres) will probably make it difficult to find any clues. As said, the Germans didn't have the man's name either (or they would have put it on the grave marker and the IWGC would have found it in the register after the war). The church of Westrozebeke was used as a medical post/hospital and some wounded were in a very bad state when they arrived and sometimes without any possibility for identification.

Jan

[Aurel Sercu]

Not that it adds anything to solve the mystery ... (On the contrary ...)

Westrozebeke Churchyard - it contained nine British men buried by the Germans. (Michael Scott, The Ypres Salient, p. 31)

In a list I have of the early 1920s : : Westroosebeke Gemeindefrdhf. Deutsche : 163 Engländer : 8.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Richard,

I tend to rule out 20.C etc. (Praatbos German Cemetery) more and more. Not only because Jan thinks there were no British graves there. But also : the V and C keys are next to each other. A typo ?

But it remains a strange coincidence that 20.C etc. happens to be a German cemetery too.

Another reason. I checked some Burial Returns of men buried in Divisional Collectin Post, hoping to find more with reference where body found 20.V, and 20.C. So far none with 20.C (Praatbos). A handful with 20.V etc. But these are too far away from Westrozebeke centre.

Just a question. I can only find (on line) the Burial Returns of Unknowns if there is at least one of a Known. I see, in your posting # 33, that you have the Burial Return with only 3 Unknowns, and no Known soldier. Where did you get that ? CWGC on line ? How ?

Aurel

[laughton]

Aurel:

I "mine" the CWGC cloud for all the GRRF, COG-BR and SPECEX files and then I put them into PDF Binders. I can also load them as a ZIP file if someone is doing a lot of work. We put a post here some time ago about sharing this work with anyone who wants to use it:

CEFSG Sharing Resources with GWF, SAWGP, ANZAC, INDIA, etc.

The details as to the process to mine the cloud is on our Wiki site:

Making a COG-BR or GRRF Binder

There are a few others in our group that have jumped onto the mining team now so we can do many more cemeteries - but a large number are already complete. It is not easy to find all the URLs for the records as they are in no reasonable order and often there are large gaps between the records. As we are doing others we often find missing sections.

I received a message from Belgium just yesterday from a fellow (Luc DeGrande) that is doing this as well and so now sharing those resources as well.

We keep an up-to-date list of the ones completed on the CEFSG Forum here:

The Unknown: CWGC Binders - Updated January 27, 2016

If you know the URL for a page you just replace the 9s in this code to get the URL for the page you want, so if you are doing a lot of that type of work you need the ZIP version instead of the PDF version so you can get the number. For example:

The basic URL code: http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc9999999.JPG

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc9999999.JPG

the document for the cemetery is 1814125.

Now as used in post #33 above: http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc1814125.JPG

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc1814125.JPG

Anyone who wants the ZIP version only needs to ask and I will do that and upload it to our shared MediaFire site. I should have done those from the start but it was a learning process. If you are just going through the records quickly the PDF binder is the fastest approach.

Divisional Collecting Post Cemetery

• COG-BR PDF Binder
• GRRF PDF BInder
  
• COG-BR ZIP Folder
  
• GRRF ZIP Folder

​You can see where these are on the MediaFire site as I just loaded the ZIP versions so you can give it a whirl. As a Canadian would day "Easy eh?".

[Aurel Sercu]

Richard,

I didn't know that !

And what a useful work.

I must say the occasions that I wanted to know where an Unknown soldier had been found originally are rather scarce. (And I would not have known where to find the answer to my question unless there was a Burial Return with the name of a Known soldier wason CWGC.on line) But now that I know my questions can be answered, I will certainly make use of it.

Congratulations !

Aurel