Odd Looking 3/4 Overcoat

[tn.drummond]

Thought those of you interested in uniforms might like a look at this.

Seems to be some form of overcoat worn by an LRB L/C c1913/14 on Salisbury Plain.

Tim

[Maricourt]

Hello Tim

I am not sure about the overcoat worn by your LRB chap in the photograph but Henry Williamson writes about cutting away the bottom part of his greatcoat. He goes on to explain that this was done by men who had seen service in the trenches who cut away part of their greatcoats due to mud clogging the hems of the garment. It was also a sign that you had been in the trenches!

I don't think this applies to the overcoat/jacket above but may be of interest to you.

Best wishes ... Maricourt

[Stoppage Drill]

Cavalry had shortened greatcoats to wear on horseback. Don't know if that's what this chap is wearing.

[tn.drummond]

Hello Tim

I am not sure about the overcoat worn by your LRB chap in the photograph but Henry Williamson writes about cutting away the bottom part of his greatcoat. He goes on to explain that this was done by men who had seen service in the trenches who cut away part of their greatcoats due to mud clogging the hems of the garment. It was also a sign that you had been in the trenches!

I don't think this applies to the overcoat/jacket above but may be of interest to you.

Best wishes ... Maricourt

Certainly an interesting quote - I keep meaning to dig out Williamsons WW1 stuff as I've not read it since early teens.

I agree 'my' coat seems not to have been hacked. As photo was taken on Salisbury Plain I doubt it would have been other than recognised issue.

Thanks

Tim

[tn.drummond]

Cavalry had shortened greatcoats to wear on horseback. Don't know if that's what this chap is wearing.

Somehow doubt this but who knows ? Uniforms are a weak point with me so not I !

Breast pockets seem unusual; still, I posted this more for other's benefit than my own - I'm recataloguing my London regiment photos and it leapt out at me as odd, not seen the like before.

Cheers

Tim

[Guest exuser1]

It's the breast pockets that I find unusual ? Could it be a drivers coat of some style ?

[Dave1418]

Hi, The pattern is not of the greatcoat of the period the pockets are in the wrong position and there is no small fob pocket on/ by the right pocket. Private purchase item perhaps?

[tn.drummond]

Private purchase item perhaps?

Possibility, but for a L/C ?

Tim

[squirrel]

Long shot perhaps - if this is a TF soldier could it be a purchase made by the battalion for fatigue duties and such like?

[centurion]

It's the breast pockets that I find unusual ? Could it be a drivers coat of some style ?

I find myself agreeing with you about the pockets - that was my first thought. However I can't find any drivers coat that looks like it.

[tn.drummond]

Long shot perhaps - if this is a TF soldier could it be a purchase made by the battalion for fatigue duties and such like?

Wouldn't know I'm afraid, Squirrel.

One thing that does strike me is that it seems very well tailored - buttons concealed and breast pockets would make it an expensive item, more akin to the likes of the HAC, Scots and CSR etc (though I'm sure the LRB saw themselves in a similar light).

[FROGSMILE]

I think you will find that it is a so-called 'Guthrie Coat' that I read was made from 'Hainsworth Cloth' and worn by some troops in limited numbers. It was not an issue item, but instead made by regimental tailors for those who could afford one. Pockets could be configured as required. Joe Sweeney might well know more of the detail.

it is made from an extra special quality Hainsworth wool that is very heavy, the khaki color has a distinctive brown hue to it and a grey flannel wool lining is fitted. The fasteners are secreted and usually two flap pockets are fitted outside and a document pocket inside. The garment is what is termed a 4 piece construction and has a middle vent at the rear.

[centurion]

I think you will find that it is a so-called 'Guthrie Coat' that I read was made from 'Hainsworth Cloth' and worn by some troops in limited numbers. It was not an issue item, but instead made by regimental tailors for those who could afford one. Pockets could be configured as required. Joe Sweeney might well know more of the detail.

it is made from an extra special quality Hainsworth wool that is very heavy, the khaki color has a distinctive brown hue to it and a grey flannel wool lining is fitted. The fasteners are secreted and usually two flap pockets are fitted outside and a document pocket inside. The garment is what is termed a 4 piece construction and has a middle vent at the rear.

Looking at a modern reproduction of a Guthrie the collar is completely different and there are no breast pockets.

[FROGSMILE]

Looking at a modern reproduction of a Guthrie the collar is completely different and there are no breast pockets.

The Guthrie was a private purchase and you could have the collar and pockets configured how you liked as long as it was common within the unit concerned. Apparently the key features were the heavy cloth and lining, the fly front and the four piece construction, the rest was optional.

[centurion]

The Guthrie was a private purchase and you could have the collar and pockets configured how you liked as long as it was common within the unit concerned. Apparently the key features were the heavy cloth and lining, the fly front and the four piece construction, the rest was optional.

So effectively impossible to positively identify from such a photo?

[tn.drummond]

I still find it very odd that a Lance Corporal could wear such an individual item. Is this peculiar to the TA of the time ? Surely no regular ranker would be allowed the same licence..

Tim

[FROGSMILE]

I still find it very odd that a Lance Corporal could wear such an individual item. Is this peculiar to the TA of the time ? Surely no regular ranker would be allowed the same licence..

Tim

Yes I think that is a good point Tim. I do not know the answer and the Guthrie coat needs more research. For example - why "Guthrie". I imagine that the Hainsworth company could tell us more.

[tn.drummond]

Yes I think that is a good point Tim. I do not know the answer and the Guthrie coat needs more research. For example - why "Guthrie". I imagine that the Hainsworth company could tell us more.

No luck as yet luck searching around 'Guthrie' or 'Hainsworth' but I'll keep on plugging away.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Tim

[Guest exuser1]

Just a point if your man was paying for a tailored private coat you would expect it to fit a bit better ?

[bill24chev]

I can recall a couple of years ago the "Sutlers Store" offering a short coat in Hainswoth cloth based on an original made for an officer serving in Mesopatania (winters in Iraq can be severe). It was similer to the coat in the photo. although I am not sure about the style and position of the pockets.

Unfortunately I believe that Sutlers Store no longer exists.

[T8HANTS]

Gentlemen this is THE London Rifle Brigade we are discussing there is absolutely no reason why a L/Cpl could not afford a tailored coat, I have had a quick look through their Standing Orders booklet for the period, but there is nothing about greatcoat details or private purchase items.

[tn.drummond]

Gentlemen this is THE London Rifle Brigade we are discussing there is absolutely no reason why a L/Cpl could not afford a tailored coat, I have had a quick look through their Standing Orders booklet for the period, but there is nothing about greatcoat details or private purchase items.

It's not the affording I question but the matter of permission.

Tim

[seaforths]

I seem to recall reading 'Last Man Standing' Norman Collins came through the ranks and was commissioned. He sent frequent letters home requesting supplements to his uniform from sources he favoured. I can see why it would be easy to make an assumption that a L/Cpl would not be able to afford such items and probably couldn't on his pay. However, his background and family could, as Collins was, be quite affluent.

From what I can gather, there were many who came through this route of commission from the ranks in training and others sent back from the front to undergo officer training and then being commissioned.

Given the shortage of uniforms and the ability to get them produced quick enough, I expect they were only too pleased if someone supplied their own.

[Maricourt]

Very interesting comments! I think Seaforths has a good point - if this is early on in the war it may well have been acceptable. Perhaps he had an exceptionally skilled mother/sister/girlfriend who ran it up for him using something similar as a template. We will probably never know!

Maricourt

[seaforths]

I was surprised to read in the diaries about battalion tailors and shoemakers that were with them overseas. They made the kilts etc. I don't know if the English Battalions had such arrangements and I can only assume that if they went to France with them then they were with them during training. Under such arrangements perhaps they also took on requests for modifications if the individual was willing to pay?