Derby Scheme 'volunteers' - choice of regiment

[Jim Hastings]

Hello All

I've looked through past posts on the Derby Scheme and cannot seem to find an answer to this one (apologies if I have missed the thread on this) but I read recently that Derby Scheme men were permitted choice of regiment upon enlisting, was this so?

My grandfather was a Derby Scheme man, and I always thought he had been assigned to the Royal West Kents (before compulsory transfers to the RGA and then RE Signals Service), but if the above is true then he requested them. This puzzles me not because he was a Holborn man - I fully appreciate that joining a local unit was far from the norm - but he had no links with Kent and, more importantly, if I understand it properly, 6th London's recruited heavily from the newspaper/print industry based around Fleet St and that is where he worked as a newspaper compositor and the unit many of his work colleagues may have gravitated to - why did he not join them? - a rhetorical question as I'll never know, but the fact he may have requested the RWKs poses more questions about him for me.

In short, though, does any member know for sure whether Derby men could choose their regiment?

Many thanks

Jim

[CGM]

There's no suggestion of choice in the notes left by a relative of my husband.

......It soon became apparent that more men were needed for the war effort and in early 1915 a scheme for the registration of everybody was started. All those over 16 years of age had to have a registration card in their possession.

After this Lord Derby launched a recruiting scheme whereby men volunteered for service and when they were needed they were called up. This could happen at any time, with just a month's notice.

He then mentions the formation of the tribunals.

He talked about the continual cry from the front "Send more men!" and said that at last conscription was introduced.

Every man on reaching the age of 18 had to go and enlist. At about this time (January 1917) he reached the age of 18.

In February, to his surprise, he received his papers. Apparently he was under the impression this would not happen for around eight months.

He was instructed to report to Stratford Recruiting Office (near his home) in mid-March where he was told to report at Horse Guards Parade, Whitehall the following morning at 9am.

He met several of his old school friends there (so it was obviously a local call-up). He became part of a group of four but they were split up - two went to Blackpool while he and the fourth member were sent to Northampton - and they found themselves in the 18th Batt. K.R.R.s.

Nowhere does he make any mention of choice.

CGM

[purley]

During December 1915 men had to register at their town hall. There were four options for men who were willing to serve:

Enlist for immediate service (these seemed to have some choice)

Enlisted in the B Reserve

Promised to enlist for immediate service

Promised to join the B reserve

Then there were a lot who were either dead or unfit or refused to serve for a variety of reasons

So far as I can see only the first group could exercise choice

[ss002d6252]

The men I have on my lists for the Derby Scheme are men who were enlisted in to their local battalion so there must have been some sort of choice of preferred battalions - presumably the battalion who took the enlistment would get first choice of the man if they wanted to stay with them. There are also a few men who enlisted for immediate service to the battalion.

I don't see any real variation from local men enlisting until the MSA comes along.

[Jim Hastings]

Excellent,

Thank you folks, no idea why he chose the RWK, maybe he liked the capbadge!!?? Interesting point I was told was that his father told him not to come back home if he was badly wounded/maimed - nice to know eh??!!

Christmas greetings to you all

Jim

[Muerrisch]

The are lots of wall-posters regarding the scheme: google derby scheme poster ......................

none of them mention choice.

I have to say I doubt there was any ......... even pre-war "choice" was often illusory!

[Chris_Baker]

A memoir I read recently (darned if I can recall which) was of a Derby Scheme recruit. He said he had no choice. I'll edit this entry if the title comes back to me.

[ss002d6252]

It appears that at least officially there was an option to request a regiment

http://hansard.millb.../army-transfers

62. Mr. FERENS

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that many gunners and drivers in the Royal Field Artillery in Hull have been told that they are to be transferred to an Infantry battalion, namely, the Northumberland Fusiliers; whether he is aware that these men enlisted under the Derby scheme, and were distinctly told by advertisement and by recruiting officers that they were to have the right to choose the regiment they preferred; and will he take steps to rectify what the men look upon as a breach of good faith?

Mr. TENNANT

Men who enlisted under the Derby scheme were given the right to indicate a choice of regiment, but no absolute pledge was given, and there can be no question, I think, of breach of faith. The expression by any man of a choice does not, of course, render him free from liability to be transferred to another corps, if this is required by military considerations under the powers conferred by the Military Service Act. The men in question are not required in the Artillery but are required in the Infantry. I sympathise with their disappointment, but they will, I am sure, realise that the Army Council have to act primarily in the national interest, and if they are told that the best service they can render to their country is by serving in the Infantry, I cannot but think that they will give that service cheerfully.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/mar/02/choice-of-regiments

89. Mr. WATT

asked whether under the Derby scheme recruits have the right to choose their regiments provided there are vacancies therein; if so, is he aware that the officials of the Whitehall recruiting office are refusing to allow Scotsmen to choose Scottish regiments even where vacancies are known to exist, and in particular that they have recently refused to allow men to proceed to Scotland to join the Lowland Brigade Royal Field Artillery, even though they had arranged with that Brigade so to act; and whether, in order not to injure recruiting, he will see this matter remedied?

§

Mr. TENNANT

Subject to the existence of vacancies which, of course, depend on the exigencies of the Service, men are sent to the regiments they desire to join. If a Scotsman, who finds himself in Whitehall, wishes to return to his native country to join a Scottish regiment in which there is a vacancy, I can assure my hon. Friend that he would be posted to it. I have made inquiries regarding the incident mentioned, but the officials at the Whitehall recruiting office, who are most sympathetic to the claims of national patriotism, have no recollection of the case.

[Muerrisch]

Glad to be proved wrong ......... I would love to see something official in print [we all know politicians lie in their teeth!] about choice. Will keep trying.

[ss002d6252]

Glad to be proved wrong ......... I would love to see something official in print [we all know politicians lie in their teeth!] about choice. Will keep trying.

There seems to be 2 contradictory sides to the story, I think I'll keep looking and see what I can find.

[ss002d6252]

The Times had the following summary of the Derby Scheme.

[Graham Stewart]

Gentleman - don't write-off the choice of regiment - look to your local newspapers and you'll find such things as the attached for the Tyneside Scottish.

[ss002d6252]

It would seem that 'officially' the scheme didn't allow choice of enlistment yet on a local level the men were retained wherever possible in the battalion who completed the enlistment forms (which makes sense as they could handle the enlistment process and presumably sent out the call up papers or register the enlistment so that the papers could be sent out centrally).

All of the posters seem to make no mention of any choice

http://commons.wikim...ry:Derby_Scheme

(I do like the fact you had to attest in the Derby Scheme before you could use the tribunal system to defer your call up)

There must be some Army Orders or similar somewhere which advised how the system was to be handled.

[ss002d6252]

26. Mr. HARVEY

asked whether steps can be taken to carry out more fully the undertaking made in Lord Derby's scheme that attested men should be allowed to join the unit for which they volunteered, provided that there were vacancies in that unit which required to be filled?

§

Mr. TENNANT

This question has been dealt with both in individual cases and by general instructions. For the last three months all the officers responsible have been instructed that, as far as possible, men should be given their preference of unit, provided they stated this preference on their attestation form and that there are vacancies in the unit which they choose.

This is a curious quote as the Derby Scheme seems to have had no provision (officially) for the choice of unit but it seems that the recruiting officers were encouraged to take a choice from the man when he enlisted.

I think the answer will be that there was the 'official' way and the 'unofficial way' of recruiting and that they tried wherever possible to ease enlistment by using the 'unofficial way'.

[Guest]

From the British Newspaper Archives a report in the Western Times - Thursday 21 October 1915

" ...no promise can be made to allot them to any particular branch. Preference for the Army Service Corps and the Royal Army Medical Corps will be given to married men. "

Click

Mike

[Guest]

Also from carolm's excellent site Click

In theory, no person could join any particular branch of the service such as Special Reserve or Territorials, under the Group system. Nor could he join for home service only, or any particular regiment. However any preference he may have would be noted by the recruiting officer and his wishes, at least regarding regimental preference, carried out as far as possible. On 2nd March 1916 the Scotsman was able to report regarding men in Groups 10, 11, 12 and 13 who were dealt with on the previous days: "As far as possible every man had his choice of corps."

Mike

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

The interesting artical quoted previously from The Times. What date did this artical appear in the paper?

[ss002d6252]

The interesting artical quoted previously from The Times. What date did this artical appear in the paper?

20 Oct 1915

[kevinrowlinson]

Although I do not have the index for ACIs for 1915 the following are those that were ordered under Recruiting, Group System during 1916. Without seeing these, and previous ones it is difficult to answer exactly what was intended. Those issued that may be of interest is Posting of recruits; Men who prefer particular units, 381 and 1246.

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

Thank you for the date of the times Artical ss002d6252.

Richard

[kevinrowlinson]

The following was in a gunners records who attested 8th December 1915 and was mobilised 18 June 1917.

Kevin

[kevinrowlinson]

Kevin

[Guest ukelele]

I have found an envelope which had ben sealed with sealing wax. I can not make out the details of the seal that had been applied. It appears to have ben given to my Great Grand father Percy Bayley. The first word is ob;literated by the sealing wax. However the rest of the wording is clear ' Full (?) days Army pay ( including rations) received by me on enlisting under the "Derby" scheme on December 10th 1915. 2/9d. Percy Bayley.

Inside the envelope is a 1915 half crown and a 1901 3d coin.

This amount appears to differ to the Times Article above.

[ChasMalmesbury]

I've searched the web for a copy of the letter given to all eligible men in October/November 1915 or the text thereof without success. The closest I've come is references to the Times Recruitment Supplement of 3 November 1915 but haven't been to the library yet to view this.

Has anyone got a copy? Was it signed by Lord Derby or were the letters printed locally?

In my study of local men who served it is surprising how many attested in December 1915 but then appealed to the local Tribunal, often several times. The newspaper reports of the Tribunal proceedings do not seem to mention those who had already voluntarily signed up and they appear to have been treated the same as those who were required to serve by the Act. Curious.

Charles

[ss002d6252]

I've searched the web for a copy of the letter given to all eligible men in October/November 1915 or the text thereof without success. The closest I've come is references to the Times Recruitment Supplement of 3 November 1915 but haven't been to the library yet to view this.

Has anyone got a copy? Was it signed by Lord Derby or were the letters printed locally?

In my study of local men who served it is surprising how many attested in December 1915 but then appealed to the local Tribunal, often several times. The newspaper reports of the Tribunal proceedings do not seem to mention those who had already voluntarily signed up and they appear to have been treated the same as those who were required to serve by the Act. Curious.

Charles

I think I have the supplement at home, I'll take a look later.

Craig